1 00:00:12,910 --> 00:00:31,430 [Music] 2 00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:33,590 our guest host this week is Paul Kimball 3 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:35,760 and maybe we should bring our listeners 4 00:00:40,190 --> 00:00:37,920 up to date on all the happenings in the 5 00:00:42,229 --> 00:00:40,200 power cast forms you see a lot of you 6 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:42,239 folks don't participate in those forums 7 00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:45,600 I'd say maybe a fraction of our 8 00:00:50,990 --> 00:00:48,180 listeners actually ever join up forum 9 00:00:53,330 --> 00:00:51,000 dot the power cast com maybe you haven't 10 00:00:55,820 --> 00:00:53,340 checked into online forums and maybe you 11 00:00:58,490 --> 00:00:55,830 don't care but a lot of the action is 12 00:01:00,890 --> 00:00:58,500 there we've got I don't know 80 90 13 00:01:03,110 --> 00:01:00,900 thousand messages right now so if it 14 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:03,120 gets pretty crazy some of it not so 15 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:06,540 crazy now we had a very active thread 16 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:09,270 very recently about UFO abductions but a 17 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:11,130 lot of that was in connection with one 18 00:01:16,969 --> 00:01:14,130 woman who decides she had been wronged 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:16,979 by dr. David Jacobs and set up a website 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:19,050 and told everybody who'd listened about 21 00:01:24,590 --> 00:01:22,530 it and then maybe you saw this message 22 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:24,600 Paul I said okay you know what you've 23 00:01:29,270 --> 00:01:27,060 had your 15 minutes of fame since you've 24 00:01:31,310 --> 00:01:29,280 made such a big deal of this tell us who 25 00:01:31,580 --> 00:01:31,320 you really are never heard from them 26 00:01:34,969 --> 00:01:31,590 again 27 00:01:37,370 --> 00:01:34,979 well gene you and I as I think you know 28 00:01:39,410 --> 00:01:37,380 had a different somewhat different point 29 00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:39,420 of view on the Emma Woods story or as 30 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:41,550 David Jacobs called her wasn't it Alice 31 00:01:43,820 --> 00:01:43,500 was that the name he used for I can't 32 00:01:46,490 --> 00:01:43,830 remember 33 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:46,500 Allison bonheur land you say that she 34 00:01:51,710 --> 00:01:48,690 claimed that she was taking advantage of 35 00:01:53,930 --> 00:01:51,720 her abuse by dr. Jacobs my point of view 36 00:01:56,059 --> 00:01:53,940 is I have absolutely no doubt that she 37 00:01:59,449 --> 00:01:56,069 was taken advantage of and abused by dr. 38 00:02:01,279 --> 00:01:59,459 Jacobs now the extent of that who you 39 00:02:02,779 --> 00:02:01,289 want to assign blame to on sort of a 40 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:02,789 relative scale if you were in a court of 41 00:02:04,309 --> 00:02:02,970 law 42 00:02:06,979 --> 00:02:04,319 you'd say they're both contributory 43 00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:06,989 negligent so it's actually kind of where 44 00:02:12,350 --> 00:02:09,780 I stand and I'm not enamored with what 45 00:02:14,150 --> 00:02:12,360 dr. Jacobs doing especially forgetting 46 00:02:17,449 --> 00:02:14,160 the value of hypnosis doing it by 47 00:02:20,690 --> 00:02:17,459 telephone right well if you assume that 48 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:20,700 the value of hypnosis is almost nil but 49 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:22,110 let's say there might be some value 50 00:02:27,050 --> 00:02:24,930 there you it's like cloning you can take 51 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:27,060 that original value whatever it is and 52 00:02:29,809 --> 00:02:28,470 then you can degrade it even further by 53 00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:29,819 doing it over the phone I think 54 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:31,920 everything about the Emma Woods case you 55 00:02:35,839 --> 00:02:33,450 can leave aside the question and I know 56 00:02:38,500 --> 00:02:35,849 some people that question her own mental 57 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:38,510 state and I think she probably does have 58 00:02:42,230 --> 00:02:40,770 some mental issues she was seeing a 59 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:42,240 therapist apparently before she ever 60 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:43,810 went to Jacobs 61 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:45,850 that doesn't mean as one poster on the 62 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:48,850 para cast forms infamously said that she 63 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:52,780 was that something crazy it just means 64 00:02:57,809 --> 00:02:56,170 that maybe like many of us she is not a 65 00:02:59,250 --> 00:02:57,819 hundred percent normal she's ninety nine 66 00:03:01,410 --> 00:02:59,260 percent normal or eighty eight percent 67 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:01,420 or whatever but to go to if she wound 68 00:03:05,790 --> 00:03:03,370 out with dr. Jacobs and I feel sorry for 69 00:03:08,430 --> 00:03:05,800 because anybody long before the same a 70 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:08,440 woods story broke there were an awful 71 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:10,170 lot of people within UFO research 72 00:03:15,510 --> 00:03:13,840 quietly in most cases saying that they 73 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:15,520 thought there were serious problems with 74 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:17,890 dr. Jacobs methodology and Budd Hopkins 75 00:03:21,990 --> 00:03:19,750 and a lot of these other guys who use 76 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:22,000 hypnosis there were a few people who 77 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:23,140 were saying it publicly 78 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:25,750 Kevin Randall was certainly one I was 79 00:03:30,870 --> 00:03:28,000 one jock valet has written about 80 00:03:32,910 --> 00:03:30,880 hypnosis and abductions I did a blog 81 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:32,920 post to have my blog a few years ago 82 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:34,330 where I talked about what doctor valet 83 00:03:38,729 --> 00:03:36,370 said none of it terribly complimentary 84 00:03:40,949 --> 00:03:38,739 so it's not as if this is a new topic 85 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:40,959 the question of hypnosis and how these 86 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:43,000 abduction researchers have been dealing 87 00:03:48,630 --> 00:03:46,510 with the subject the Emma Woods case to 88 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:48,640 me should be the nail no matter what you 89 00:03:53,850 --> 00:03:51,310 think about the relative merits of her 90 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:53,860 side of it or his side if you listen to 91 00:03:57,390 --> 00:03:55,630 all the evidence objectively if you look 92 00:03:59,550 --> 00:03:57,400 at what's been posted by both sides I 93 00:04:02,009 --> 00:03:59,560 think it should be the nail in whatever 94 00:04:04,229 --> 00:04:02,019 career quote quote dr. Jacobs said in 95 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:04,239 terms of dealing with the abduction 96 00:04:09,449 --> 00:04:06,430 phenomenon I don't think dr. Jacobs 97 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:09,459 should be allowed anywhere near anybody 98 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:12,010 who claims to have had an abduction 99 00:04:15,509 --> 00:04:13,810 experience whatever that phenomenon 100 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:15,519 represents I think it's time for dr. 101 00:04:20,340 --> 00:04:18,039 Jacobs to quietly ride into the sunset 102 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:20,350 and you know for his own sake the best 103 00:04:23,370 --> 00:04:21,970 thing for him might be to sort of say 104 00:04:25,590 --> 00:04:23,380 you know what maybe I did some good work 105 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:25,600 in the past in terms of researching the 106 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:27,490 history of the UFO phenomenon other 107 00:04:31,890 --> 00:04:29,680 things hopefully folks will remember me 108 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:31,900 for that and now I'm just gonna fade 109 00:04:36,750 --> 00:04:33,970 away and and I don't want to be part of 110 00:04:39,029 --> 00:04:36,760 this anymore see my time here is not so 111 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:39,039 much that he did things that possibly 112 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:41,560 aren't kosher and say I have very very 113 00:04:44,430 --> 00:04:42,430 deep concerns 114 00:04:47,700 --> 00:04:44,440 I wouldn't want somebody to hypnotize me 115 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:47,710 and if they did I want somebody who was 116 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:49,990 at least trained a trained mental 117 00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:52,030 therapist not a history teacher or 118 00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:54,430 something you know so that's taking it 119 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:55,550 for I mean as a kid 120 00:04:59,740 --> 00:04:58,130 I would hypnotize my friends but we're 121 00:05:02,050 --> 00:04:59,750 having fun we weren't doing it for 122 00:05:04,210 --> 00:05:02,060 therapy I also freely admit that I'm 123 00:05:07,870 --> 00:05:04,220 probably quite crazy on the other hand I 124 00:05:10,690 --> 00:05:07,880 think Emma Woods was using this granting 125 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:10,700 on to it and maybe trying to basically 126 00:05:15,070 --> 00:05:13,250 create a community around herself a 127 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:15,080 little bit more than she should have 128 00:05:20,770 --> 00:05:17,510 she should also have decided she is 129 00:05:23,830 --> 00:05:20,780 reasonably well at one point to simply 130 00:05:25,390 --> 00:05:23,840 hang up the phone say this is enough she 131 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:25,400 didn't have to keep calling him she 132 00:05:29,950 --> 00:05:27,290 didn't have to participate in these 133 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:29,960 sessions anymore if he's being as 134 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:33,080 abusive as she says he is hang up the 135 00:05:36,190 --> 00:05:33,530 phone 136 00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:36,200 give it up on the long haul I would hope 137 00:05:41,770 --> 00:05:38,720 that we'll find a way to investigate 138 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:41,780 these things without hypnosis on the 139 00:05:46,090 --> 00:05:43,100 other hand we have a problem 140 00:05:49,090 --> 00:05:46,100 what about so-called missing time how do 141 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:49,100 you recover memories that may not be 142 00:05:53,890 --> 00:05:51,410 there well I would go back to to go back 143 00:05:55,300 --> 00:05:53,900 to the Emma Woods thing again and I 144 00:05:57,610 --> 00:05:55,310 think this will probably be the final 145 00:05:59,440 --> 00:05:57,620 time that I say anything about it I 146 00:05:59,980 --> 00:05:59,450 absolutely understand where she's coming 147 00:06:03,340 --> 00:05:59,990 from 148 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:03,350 if what happened is is what she said 149 00:06:07,540 --> 00:06:05,360 happened even remotely as close to what 150 00:06:10,420 --> 00:06:07,550 happened the it is perfectly 151 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:10,430 understandable human response to want to 152 00:06:16,210 --> 00:06:13,010 go after the person that did this to you 153 00:06:17,860 --> 00:06:16,220 I understand it I am Not sure I would 154 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:17,870 carry it quite as far as it seems she 155 00:06:21,940 --> 00:06:20,450 has but I've been wrong too before and 156 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:21,950 I'm not talking by a guy who hypnotized 157 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:23,570 me and convinced me I had multiple 158 00:06:27,730 --> 00:06:25,250 personality disorder or whatever you 159 00:06:29,140 --> 00:06:27,740 know in business or anything else and I 160 00:06:30,490 --> 00:06:29,150 give as good as I get 161 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:30,500 you know you're not just gonna walk over 162 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:32,510 me and expect me to fade away so I don't 163 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:33,650 think she's been trying to create a 164 00:06:39,130 --> 00:06:35,510 community I think she was taken 165 00:06:41,770 --> 00:06:39,140 advantage of by a couple of podcast 166 00:06:43,750 --> 00:06:41,780 hosts on another podcast that shall not 167 00:06:46,660 --> 00:06:43,760 be named but is going a business soon 168 00:06:48,610 --> 00:06:46,670 and I think they were primarily 169 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:48,620 responsible for publicly spreading the 170 00:06:53,620 --> 00:06:51,050 story over the last few months to their 171 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:53,630 own benefit and I think she was taken 172 00:06:57,610 --> 00:06:55,430 advantage of a bit by them on the flip 173 00:06:59,380 --> 00:06:57,620 side I think it was good that they 174 00:07:00,550 --> 00:06:59,390 brought that story out because I don't 175 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:00,560 think she was getting a lot of traction 176 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:03,290 within the UFO research community I 177 00:07:06,189 --> 00:07:05,030 think it was a story that was known 178 00:07:08,739 --> 00:07:06,199 before then 179 00:07:10,779 --> 00:07:08,749 and I think people were largely ignoring 180 00:07:13,809 --> 00:07:10,789 it because dr. Jacobs has a lot of 181 00:07:15,189 --> 00:07:13,819 friends dr. Jacobs has an awful lot of 182 00:07:17,110 --> 00:07:15,199 people that he's worked with over the 183 00:07:19,869 --> 00:07:17,120 years 10 20 years so does Budd Hopkins 184 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:19,879 who would be loath to criticize them 185 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:22,310 even when presented with evidence that 186 00:07:24,459 --> 00:07:23,930 is pretty damning as far as I'm 187 00:07:26,679 --> 00:07:24,469 concerned 188 00:07:29,140 --> 00:07:26,689 you want chemin Randall talks about a 189 00:07:31,450 --> 00:07:29,150 conspiracy of silence I'll tell you what 190 00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:31,460 the concerns conspiracy of silence is 191 00:07:34,779 --> 00:07:33,020 but I can guarantee you there's a 192 00:07:37,119 --> 00:07:34,789 conspiracy of silence within the UFO 193 00:07:39,219 --> 00:07:37,129 research community and that conspiracy 194 00:07:42,820 --> 00:07:39,229 of silence is when you are dealing with 195 00:07:44,589 --> 00:07:42,830 a very popular researcher a well known 196 00:07:47,709 --> 00:07:44,599 researcher one who's been around for a 197 00:07:48,969 --> 00:07:47,719 while if you start to see chinks in 198 00:07:50,529 --> 00:07:48,979 their armor if you start to see them 199 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:50,539 doing things that well you know maybe 200 00:07:55,570 --> 00:07:53,210 maybe this isn't quite kosher you keep 201 00:07:57,459 --> 00:07:55,580 quiet because in many cases you don't 202 00:07:59,050 --> 00:07:57,469 want to disrupt relationships that might 203 00:08:01,149 --> 00:07:59,060 lead you or keep you on the conference 204 00:08:03,010 --> 00:08:01,159 lecture circuit but in other cases it's 205 00:08:04,989 --> 00:08:03,020 partly a natural response to you can see 206 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:04,999 it sorted from I don't you know if you 207 00:08:08,980 --> 00:08:06,889 objectively looking at it but Hopkins 208 00:08:10,749 --> 00:08:08,990 came out and defended dr. Jacobs he did 209 00:08:13,389 --> 00:08:10,759 it on the podcast he's done and 210 00:08:15,999 --> 00:08:13,399 elsewhere and he did it vehemently in 211 00:08:19,570 --> 00:08:16,009 some respects by attacking the character 212 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:19,580 of Emma Woods that it to me he's aiding 213 00:08:22,809 --> 00:08:21,050 and abetting the bad behavior of dr. 214 00:08:25,269 --> 00:08:22,819 Jacobs on the other hand I also 215 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:25,279 understand the human impulse behind that 216 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:26,930 to defend somebody who's been a lifelong 217 00:08:30,159 --> 00:08:28,370 friend of yours to try and believe the 218 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:30,169 best about them but at some point you 219 00:08:33,939 --> 00:08:31,610 have to step back and say you know what 220 00:08:35,170 --> 00:08:33,949 if this guy has been doing the kinds of 221 00:08:38,409 --> 00:08:35,180 things that it looks like he's been 222 00:08:41,259 --> 00:08:38,419 doing maybe I need to reassess who my 223 00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:41,269 friends are and just because they seem 224 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:42,680 to share my views within the UFO 225 00:08:45,970 --> 00:08:44,570 community maybe there's a greater good 226 00:08:48,189 --> 00:08:45,980 here maybe there's a moral imperative 227 00:08:50,380 --> 00:08:48,199 that goes beyond just being friends or 228 00:08:52,509 --> 00:08:50,390 both of us making the same point and the 229 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:52,519 UFO research community falls down 230 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:55,010 consistently on this point time after 231 00:08:58,780 --> 00:08:56,930 time after time and this is just another 232 00:09:01,059 --> 00:08:58,790 case of it well at least I have no 233 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:01,069 lecturers to give and no lecture circuit 234 00:09:06,129 --> 00:09:03,410 to join nobody's asking me to join the 235 00:09:08,019 --> 00:09:06,139 lecture circuit so I don't care because 236 00:09:10,180 --> 00:09:08,029 I say stuff like what I just said so I 237 00:09:13,030 --> 00:09:10,190 don't get invites but well that's it you 238 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:13,040 just mess it up and by allowing you to 239 00:09:15,479 --> 00:09:14,050 say that well 240 00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:15,489 they're not going to invite me either 241 00:09:19,859 --> 00:09:18,100 and frankly I don't care I'd rather be 242 00:09:21,809 --> 00:09:19,869 honest and poor which of course is what 243 00:09:24,090 --> 00:09:21,819 I am okay now the second part of the 244 00:09:27,299 --> 00:09:24,100 question of course is alright so how do 245 00:09:30,239 --> 00:09:27,309 we recover was the methodology to 246 00:09:31,530 --> 00:09:30,249 recover memories where somebody says you 247 00:09:34,109 --> 00:09:31,540 know what I was driving along the 248 00:09:37,879 --> 00:09:34,119 highway a UFO seven-eighths four hours 249 00:09:41,150 --> 00:09:37,889 later what's the process take them to a 250 00:09:44,579 --> 00:09:41,160 qualified trained practitioner 251 00:09:46,259 --> 00:09:44,589 psychology psychiatry medical people and 252 00:09:48,569 --> 00:09:46,269 let them deal with it it's time for the 253 00:09:50,879 --> 00:09:48,579 UFO research community and I use those 254 00:09:54,119 --> 00:09:50,889 that term in quotation marks in most 255 00:09:56,789 --> 00:09:54,129 cases to get out of it you know they can 256 00:09:58,109 --> 00:09:56,799 wander off and you will continue to get 257 00:10:01,499 --> 00:09:58,119 people who will continue to push the 258 00:10:04,229 --> 00:10:01,509 alien abduction meme that story that 259 00:10:06,239 --> 00:10:04,239 narrative good you can't stop them 260 00:10:07,829 --> 00:10:06,249 however if you really want to look at 261 00:10:09,059 --> 00:10:07,839 what's happening with these people there 262 00:10:11,579 --> 00:10:09,069 are trained professionals that should be 263 00:10:14,579 --> 00:10:11,589 looking into it you're not qualified to 264 00:10:16,739 --> 00:10:14,589 a pine on that I'm not qualified I'm 265 00:10:17,850 --> 00:10:16,749 suspecting although without knowing for 266 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:17,860 sure that nobody on the pair of cast 267 00:10:21,389 --> 00:10:20,110 forms is really truly qualified unless 268 00:10:24,119 --> 00:10:21,399 you know they have a psychology degree 269 00:10:26,910 --> 00:10:24,129 or something so I think it's time that 270 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:26,920 you know that end of it that entire 271 00:10:31,109 --> 00:10:28,929 thing be we transfer it over to them and 272 00:10:32,850 --> 00:10:31,119 if there are physical aspects of the 273 00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:32,860 abduction phenomenon there are ways to 274 00:10:36,539 --> 00:10:34,480 research the abduction phenomenon don't 275 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:36,549 if anyone's listening to me don't think 276 00:10:39,629 --> 00:10:37,540 for a minute that I'm saying we 277 00:10:41,850 --> 00:10:39,639 shouldn't look into this as UFO whatever 278 00:10:44,449 --> 00:10:41,860 paranormal researchers it just shouldn't 279 00:10:46,319 --> 00:10:44,459 involve dealing with recovered memories 280 00:10:47,939 --> 00:10:46,329 psychological issues and all that sort 281 00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:47,949 of stuff we're not trained for it and 282 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:49,600 even if you were trained for you might 283 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:51,610 get somebody within the UFO field who 284 00:10:56,220 --> 00:10:53,470 was biased it should be an objective 285 00:10:58,350 --> 00:10:56,230 person who's looking at this but there 286 00:10:59,909 --> 00:10:58,360 are things that you can do you can look 287 00:11:01,530 --> 00:10:59,919 for physical evidence you can go and 288 00:11:02,669 --> 00:11:01,540 invest if somebody calls and says look I 289 00:11:04,769 --> 00:11:02,679 was in my house I was taken out of my 290 00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:04,779 bed I'm missing time or I was driving my 291 00:11:09,539 --> 00:11:07,089 car whatever you can do conduct a 292 00:11:11,249 --> 00:11:09,549 physical investigation of that site to 293 00:11:14,519 --> 00:11:11,259 look for any evidence if there's no 294 00:11:17,429 --> 00:11:14,529 evidence well that's interesting you can 295 00:11:19,650 --> 00:11:17,439 set up cameras I'm shocked that this is 296 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:19,660 not done more often when we were ghost 297 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:20,169 hunting 298 00:11:24,419 --> 00:11:22,660 filming ghost cases we had a DVR camera 299 00:11:26,210 --> 00:11:24,429 system so you would have for you watch 300 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:26,220 any episodes you'll see it in fact we 301 00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:28,170 caught some very compelling footage that 302 00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,640 we still would show the number of 303 00:11:33,140 --> 00:11:31,440 experts they just shrug and go that's 304 00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:33,150 not a camera artifact we can't explain 305 00:11:37,850 --> 00:11:35,790 what it is set those cameras up if I 306 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:37,860 mean if I've been having these abduction 307 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:39,210 experiences coming out of my bed for 308 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:40,770 instance you know missing time at night 309 00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:42,930 whatever set they four cameras up in the 310 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:45,480 room and see what happens and and don't 311 00:11:49,310 --> 00:11:48,090 expect to get results in a day or two 312 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:49,320 you know that's the other thing you 313 00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:51,330 follow G UFO research seems to be 314 00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:53,040 lacking as patients these days 315 00:11:58,010 --> 00:11:56,100 stick it for the long haul run this run 316 00:12:01,220 --> 00:11:58,020 the test over six months for twelve 317 00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:01,230 months or however long it takes and see 318 00:12:05,270 --> 00:12:02,760 if anything happens if nothing happens 319 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:05,280 then I think you're probably looking at 320 00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:08,730 something where the problem or the issue 321 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:10,710 lies with the person who's reporting it 322 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:12,690 and it's an internal thing not an 323 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:14,910 external thing but who knows if you run 324 00:12:19,580 --> 00:12:16,890 these kinds of investigations real 325 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:19,590 investigations not people with pocket 326 00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:21,810 watches trying to hypnotize somebody or 327 00:12:26,030 --> 00:12:23,040 somebody calling somebody in New Zealand 328 00:12:28,070 --> 00:12:26,040 going I'm hypnotizing you now to recover 329 00:12:30,770 --> 00:12:28,080 memories by the way you have multiple 330 00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:30,780 personality disorder toss that stuff and 331 00:12:36,770 --> 00:12:33,660 go back and do real investigation CSI 332 00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:36,780 crime scene type investigations and also 333 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:39,360 not just in the past but what's coming 334 00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:42,930 in the future set up cameras have people 335 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:44,760 monitor it those are things that can be 336 00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,520 done relatively inexpensively and it 337 00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:49,680 sure as hell beats sitting down and 338 00:12:53,150 --> 00:12:51,240 hypnotizing people to try and recover 339 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:53,160 memories a process that even in the 340 00:12:59,930 --> 00:12:55,890 hands of the most trained most qualified 341 00:13:02,510 --> 00:12:59,940 professional is controversial let's say 342 00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:02,520 at best I was gonna say debatable but I 343 00:13:07,580 --> 00:13:05,100 go along with your similar 344 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:07,590 characterization of what that is I will 345 00:13:12,140 --> 00:13:10,350 say this ladies and gentlemen I think if 346 00:13:13,340 --> 00:13:12,150 you had the cameras there you wouldn't 347 00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:13,350 see anything it doesn't mean the 348 00:13:17,450 --> 00:13:15,480 experiences are not real but I think a 349 00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:17,460 lot of them are internal we'll see what 350 00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:21,240 happens we have a guest who is returning 351 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:22,860 for a second appearance on the power 352 00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:25,290 cast he's somebody who was an insider 353 00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:27,420 tell us about Nick Pope I'm a good 354 00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:29,820 friend Nick Pope the man does like his 355 00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:32,430 beer and so do I so every time Nick and 356 00:13:36,489 --> 00:13:34,200 I get together we always have a lot of 357 00:13:39,549 --> 00:13:36,499 fun he was the 358 00:13:41,619 --> 00:13:39,559 the Ministry of Defense's UFO desk again 359 00:13:43,209 --> 00:13:41,629 a controversial claim there are critics 360 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:43,219 of his within the United Kingdom who say 361 00:13:46,839 --> 00:13:44,569 that he was basically just a paper 362 00:13:48,459 --> 00:13:46,849 pushing clerk Nick's story has always 363 00:13:50,199 --> 00:13:48,469 been and this has been backed up by I 364 00:13:51,969 --> 00:13:50,209 think most people who know what was 365 00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:51,979 really going on and while he did a fair 366 00:13:57,039 --> 00:13:54,049 bit of paper pushing he was also going 367 00:14:00,729 --> 00:13:57,049 out and investigating cases in the field 368 00:14:02,409 --> 00:14:00,739 from I believe 1991 to 1993 I think I 369 00:14:04,659 --> 00:14:02,419 have those years right after which 370 00:14:06,059 --> 00:14:04,669 before and after he was involved in 371 00:14:08,259 --> 00:14:06,069 other work at the Ministry of Defence 372 00:14:10,419 --> 00:14:08,269 eventually retiring I think about a year 373 00:14:12,339 --> 00:14:10,429 and a half or two years ago and now he's 374 00:14:15,909 --> 00:14:12,349 in the private sector as a researcher 375 00:14:18,429 --> 00:14:15,919 writer media personality vom vivant 376 00:14:20,649 --> 00:14:18,439 so he's the thing about Nick is he's 377 00:14:23,079 --> 00:14:20,659 people of all often said he's very hard 378 00:14:24,669 --> 00:14:23,089 to pin down people I've been there at 379 00:14:26,859 --> 00:14:24,679 parties and people will often ask them 380 00:14:29,499 --> 00:14:26,869 questions about things that Nick cannot 381 00:14:30,999 --> 00:14:29,509 tell you the answers to because he's 382 00:14:32,559 --> 00:14:31,009 still down by the Official Secrets Act 383 00:14:34,299 --> 00:14:32,569 and I don't understand why people don't 384 00:14:35,649 --> 00:14:34,309 get that but there you know once you 385 00:14:37,659 --> 00:14:35,659 leave the Ministry of Defence you can't 386 00:14:39,579 --> 00:14:37,669 just go well okay here's the truth we 387 00:14:41,619 --> 00:14:39,589 really did kill Princess Diana or 388 00:14:42,039 --> 00:14:41,629 whatever I mean you know if that sort of 389 00:14:43,719 --> 00:14:42,049 stuff 390 00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:43,729 I actually saw somebody asked or was 391 00:14:47,169 --> 00:14:44,809 there when somebody asked that question 392 00:14:49,899 --> 00:14:47,179 once did they you know did him mi6 393 00:14:51,309 --> 00:14:49,909 really off Princess died Nick just took 394 00:14:53,589 --> 00:14:51,319 a drink smiled and said well even if 395 00:14:55,179 --> 00:14:53,599 they did I couldn't tell you so you know 396 00:14:57,219 --> 00:14:55,189 what we'll be talking to him tonight 397 00:14:58,779 --> 00:14:57,229 with that caveat we'll try and get as 398 00:15:01,179 --> 00:14:58,789 much information out of Nick Pope as 399 00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:01,189 anybody has ever gotten at him but we 400 00:15:05,650 --> 00:15:03,289 won't ask him about Princess died Nick 401 00:15:08,189 --> 00:15:05,660 Pope coming up next on the terror cast 402 00:15:11,169 --> 00:15:08,199 [Music] 403 00:15:12,999 --> 00:15:11,179 hi this is 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web hosting 418 00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:40,510 and domain name specials you can also 419 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:41,860 follow us on twitter at 420 00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:47,380 twitter.com/zeromd bars on facebook at 421 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:49,480 facebook.com slash Namecheap see you 422 00:15:56,610 --> 00:15:54,970 online we want to hear from you if you 423 00:16:00,360 --> 00:15:56,620 have a comment a question about the pair 424 00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:00,370 cast send it to news at the podcast com 425 00:16:05,550 --> 00:16:03,640 that's news at the podcast calm and 426 00:16:07,259 --> 00:16:05,560 don't forget to visit our forums where 427 00:16:09,810 --> 00:16:07,269 you can talk to fellow listeners just go 428 00:16:12,269 --> 00:16:09,820 to the para cast comm and click on the 429 00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:12,279 forum links that's the forum links at 430 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:23,680 the podcast comm hi this is Don Ecker 431 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:26,529 and you are tuned in to the para cast 432 00:16:31,860 --> 00:16:28,750 let me tell you what you're gonna hear 433 00:16:37,319 --> 00:16:31,870 stuff here that you probably won't hear 434 00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:37,329 anywhere else hello Nick Pope calling 435 00:16:41,819 --> 00:16:39,279 from or we're calling you actually I 436 00:16:47,069 --> 00:16:41,829 assume you're in London in the mother 437 00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:47,079 country as we Canadians say ah very good 438 00:16:55,019 --> 00:16:52,769 yes quite so 439 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:55,029 before we came on folks in case you're 440 00:16:59,639 --> 00:16:57,130 looking for the sports scores Nick steam 441 00:17:01,439 --> 00:16:59,649 Arsenal finished third this year in the 442 00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:01,449 Premier League and it looks like David 443 00:17:04,350 --> 00:17:02,980 Cameron is gonna be the new Prime 444 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:04,360 Minister of the United Kingdom there 445 00:17:07,890 --> 00:17:05,530 that's all we'll say there's a little 446 00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:07,900 bit of British politics and sports 447 00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:10,540 before we get into UFOs is that did I 448 00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:11,740 get that right Nick they finished three 449 00:17:16,439 --> 00:17:13,540 years you did although the political 450 00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:16,449 situation is quite literally changing by 451 00:17:22,890 --> 00:17:20,559 the minute it's not the second so the 452 00:17:26,730 --> 00:17:22,900 fact this will be on our May 23rd show 453 00:17:29,130 --> 00:17:26,740 so everything you just an operative well 454 00:17:30,539 --> 00:17:29,140 by the time that broadcast then it will 455 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:30,549 be what you didn't know about the 456 00:17:35,130 --> 00:17:32,830 minority green government that's what 457 00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:35,140 the power in the revolution you guys are 458 00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:36,880 so out of date the coalition between 459 00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,470 Gerry Adams and 460 00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:41,600 with what is it played come ray or 461 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:44,870 whatever the Welsh national okay so Paul 462 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:47,450 McCartney is now Sir Paul McCartney is 463 00:17:50,770 --> 00:17:49,490 now Prime Minister right well maybe 464 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:50,780 that's an idea 465 00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:52,070 that's about the one thing we haven't 466 00:17:55,870 --> 00:17:54,020 tried over here the weirdest thing that 467 00:17:57,790 --> 00:17:55,880 I saw I watched the British election 468 00:17:59,560 --> 00:17:57,800 coverage from start to finish 469 00:18:01,810 --> 00:17:59,570 lovely on the Internet to wonderful 470 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:01,820 technological advancement on the BBC and 471 00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,710 they had a guy who was at on a boat on 472 00:18:06,610 --> 00:18:05,600 the Thames interviewing various people 473 00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:06,620 on the boat I can't remember his name 474 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:08,390 but one of the people he interviewed was 475 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:10,010 Bill Wyman the bass player for the 476 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:11,810 Rolling Stones I think it was it was 477 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:13,130 either him or Ronny Woodman this year 478 00:18:17,950 --> 00:18:14,930 was well well-known political 479 00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:17,960 commentator yes quite and you you would 480 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:20,360 think okay so he's a rock and roller so 481 00:18:24,010 --> 00:18:22,370 clearly he must be at least centre if 482 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:24,020 not left because I mean rock and roll 483 00:18:27,130 --> 00:18:25,610 it's all about revolution in it and you 484 00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:27,140 yeah I think he was half of the bag but 485 00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:29,360 he said so I understand you're you're 486 00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:30,740 hoping for David Cameron in the Tories 487 00:18:36,130 --> 00:18:32,180 like oh yes of course 488 00:18:37,630 --> 00:18:36,140 of course I saw that too I was up in the 489 00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:37,640 middle of the night and he said but I 490 00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:38,840 thought you were supposed to be working 491 00:18:47,710 --> 00:18:41,060 class labour voter had loads of done 492 00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:47,720 nothing for me I was up at 2:00 or 3:00 493 00:18:50,830 --> 00:18:49,460 in the morning watching that it was 494 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:50,840 10:00 here but I was watching the same 495 00:18:53,530 --> 00:18:52,490 interview and I just thought well you 496 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:53,540 never really know anybody in 497 00:18:57,070 --> 00:18:55,130 rock-and-roll do but of course if you've 498 00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:57,080 got millions of dollars maybe you do 499 00:19:00,400 --> 00:18:58,490 vote for a conservative governor well 500 00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:00,410 you have to look that bear in mind that 501 00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:02,380 these rock and well millionaires are a 502 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:06,710 middle-aged men and women who have 503 00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:08,930 humongous amounts of money and they're 504 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:10,700 probably going to fight to conserve that 505 00:19:14,860 --> 00:19:13,490 money and therefore it makes sense some 506 00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:14,870 of them will be politically conservative 507 00:19:18,910 --> 00:19:17,120 right who's going to take the least of 508 00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:18,920 my money and I'm gonna vote for them 509 00:19:22,660 --> 00:19:21,470 well yeah we forget about this thing 510 00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:22,670 that the fact is you look at 511 00:19:28,030 --> 00:19:25,430 entertainers they are businessmen there 512 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:28,040 are business women sometimes I just 513 00:19:31,090 --> 00:19:29,450 think the who was right don't trust 514 00:19:32,860 --> 00:19:31,100 anybody over 30 little did they know 515 00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:32,870 when they said it that eventually they 516 00:19:39,730 --> 00:19:36,140 would mean themselves so there you go so 517 00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:39,740 Nick Pope UFOs real or not real does 518 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:41,720 that I bet you've never heard that one 519 00:19:47,230 --> 00:19:44,590 that's your opening question right well 520 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:47,240 well you know you know my answer to this 521 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:50,570 one in a little victory definition term 522 00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:52,310 of course real because people 523 00:19:56,620 --> 00:19:53,990 see things that they can't explain in 524 00:20:00,580 --> 00:19:56,630 the sky if you're talking about the 525 00:20:03,610 --> 00:20:00,590 popular culture interpretation erroneous 526 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:03,620 interpretation of the phrase UFO ie 527 00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:06,170 alien spacecraft the answer is don't 528 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:08,630 know I'm on the fence interestingly as 529 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:10,130 we've been talking about politics I'll 530 00:20:21,490 --> 00:20:12,290 give you the politicians answer I can't 531 00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:21,500 rule without the power cast is that you 532 00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:24,350 know go around saying that the greys or 533 00:20:29,170 --> 00:20:26,390 the blond Venusians are after us we're 534 00:20:31,450 --> 00:20:29,180 saying we don't know what's causing all 535 00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:31,460 this stuff to go on and we want to find 536 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:33,710 some answers and if it turns out to the 537 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:36,410 earth base UFOs or crypto terrestrials 538 00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:37,910 or from another dimension or some 539 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:40,700 phenomenon natural phenomena that we 540 00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:43,760 don't understand have you at all had 541 00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:46,000 some theories that you find more 542 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:47,990 compelling than others how about that 543 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:51,260 Nick well again I'm I'm sorry to be a 544 00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:53,210 bit vague in evasive but actually no I 545 00:20:57,490 --> 00:20:54,500 haven't and I think you ought your 546 00:20:59,020 --> 00:20:57,500 question illustrates the point perfectly 547 00:21:01,600 --> 00:20:59,030 there are so many different competing 548 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:01,610 theories about this wonderful mystery 549 00:21:07,930 --> 00:21:04,810 that we find ourselves embroiled in 550 00:21:12,190 --> 00:21:07,940 extraterrestrials into dimensionals into 551 00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:12,200 temp orioles black project exotic 552 00:21:16,510 --> 00:21:14,840 atmospheric plasmas what one can take 553 00:21:19,330 --> 00:21:16,520 all of this and throw it into the mix 554 00:21:21,370 --> 00:21:19,340 but at the end of the day if any of us 555 00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:21,380 had any answers we wouldn't be having 556 00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:22,940 this interview and the truth of the 557 00:21:27,430 --> 00:21:24,740 matter is that none of us know however 558 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:27,440 much we like to maybe position ourselves 559 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:30,170 as experts actually I'm the first person 560 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:32,570 to say you know what I don't know all of 561 00:21:39,010 --> 00:21:34,910 these things are theories that can be 562 00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:39,020 thrown into the mix but I really don't 563 00:21:43,570 --> 00:21:41,360 know which one to punt what do you think 564 00:21:45,250 --> 00:21:43,580 Nick that part of the problem with and I 565 00:21:46,930 --> 00:21:45,260 will use this term consistently 566 00:21:48,850 --> 00:21:46,940 throughout the interview because people 567 00:21:50,290 --> 00:21:48,860 I think are familiar with it even though 568 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:50,300 it encompasses have brought different 569 00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:51,530 people look at it different ways but 570 00:21:55,390 --> 00:21:53,510 I'll use the term ufology do you think 571 00:21:57,970 --> 00:21:55,400 part of the problem with modern ufology 572 00:21:59,860 --> 00:21:57,980 has been and continues to be that they 573 00:22:02,419 --> 00:21:59,870 spend too much time talking about these 574 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:02,429 theories arguing about them 575 00:22:08,239 --> 00:22:04,970 advocating for them and not enough time 576 00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:08,249 investigating cases anymore I certainly 577 00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:10,830 think there's something to that I think 578 00:22:17,539 --> 00:22:13,679 the internet for all its positive things 579 00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:17,549 has exacerbated that problem by putting 580 00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:21,360 the focus on this subject the center of 581 00:22:28,970 --> 00:22:25,350 gravity as it were on two logs and 582 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:28,980 forums and email lists and websites and 583 00:22:33,859 --> 00:22:31,470 discussion groups and all that and the 584 00:22:36,139 --> 00:22:33,869 old-fashioned idea of getting mud on 585 00:22:38,299 --> 00:22:36,149 your boots and going out and speaking to 586 00:22:40,989 --> 00:22:38,309 a witness and saying what what is it 587 00:22:43,399 --> 00:22:40,999 you saw where was it where he's standing 588 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:43,409 that's going out of the window so yes I 589 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:45,450 I agree with that that's what I found 590 00:22:48,889 --> 00:22:47,369 when I was ghost investigating you know 591 00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:48,899 so much different than the UFO thing 592 00:22:52,609 --> 00:22:50,340 where we would actually go out talk to 593 00:22:54,049 --> 00:22:52,619 witnesses who'd seen things and then we 594 00:22:55,639 --> 00:22:54,059 could set it up and run an investigation 595 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:55,649 ourselves to see if we experienced 596 00:23:00,409 --> 00:22:57,570 anything which is very different from 597 00:23:01,489 --> 00:23:00,419 what most UFO investigation is now in 598 00:23:02,659 --> 00:23:01,499 fact I think that's one of the 599 00:23:05,239 --> 00:23:02,669 components that's always been missing 600 00:23:07,009 --> 00:23:05,249 from UFO investigation is not just 601 00:23:08,989 --> 00:23:07,019 talking to witnesses and stuff but then 602 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:08,999 sticking around you know if there's been 603 00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:12,090 a report of a case in X you know talk to 604 00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:13,769 the witnesses but then stay in X for a 605 00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:16,230 week or two and see if maybe it happens 606 00:23:22,580 --> 00:23:19,110 again you never know I'll just jump in 607 00:23:25,580 --> 00:23:22,590 on that because literally yesterday I 608 00:23:28,639 --> 00:23:25,590 was speaking to a scientific group I'd 609 00:23:29,899 --> 00:23:28,649 say it's an organization in the UK there 610 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:29,909 are a number of these groups I'm not 611 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:32,730 sure whether they're wider than the UK 612 00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:35,129 but it's called cafe scientifique and 613 00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:37,529 it's basically a loose confederation of 614 00:23:42,499 --> 00:23:40,200 people who believe in science and 615 00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:42,509 believe that we should look at the 616 00:23:48,139 --> 00:23:44,340 intriguing mysteries and things but with 617 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:48,149 the scientific mindset and the question 618 00:23:53,019 --> 00:23:50,970 I got asks there boy the organizer which 619 00:23:56,659 --> 00:23:53,029 I really hadn't thought of and really 620 00:23:59,210 --> 00:23:56,669 did set me off on new tracks was well 621 00:24:02,090 --> 00:23:59,220 when you're interviewing a UFO witness 622 00:24:05,299 --> 00:24:02,100 do you do follow-up interviews maybe a 623 00:24:08,060 --> 00:24:05,309 week a month afterwards asking exactly 624 00:24:10,299 --> 00:24:08,070 the same things but inquiring as to 625 00:24:13,340 --> 00:24:10,309 whether the perception has changed 626 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:13,350 within the intervening period they've 627 00:24:17,980 --> 00:24:15,050 had a chance to reflect 628 00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:17,990 - perhaps cross-check what they think 629 00:24:22,510 --> 00:24:20,240 against other information and whether 630 00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:22,520 they've kept their opinion or whether 631 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:24,260 their views have evolved and that was a 632 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:25,970 really interesting question I have to 633 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:28,130 say it stumped me somewhat and that's 634 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:30,770 exactly the sort of thing that probably 635 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:34,490 should go on in UFO research doesn't do 636 00:24:37,330 --> 00:24:35,570 you think part of the problem is that 637 00:24:40,090 --> 00:24:37,340 something doing that kind of work isn't 638 00:24:42,850 --> 00:24:40,100 terribly sexy it's much it's much easier 639 00:24:44,350 --> 00:24:42,860 to but it's also cooler perhaps to stand 640 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:44,360 up in front of a crowd or go on a radio 641 00:24:48,250 --> 00:24:46,250 show or whatever write a book and say 642 00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:48,260 well clearly here's a couple of cases 643 00:24:51,850 --> 00:24:49,520 and by the way now I'm going to talk 644 00:24:53,470 --> 00:24:51,860 about the theoretical implications and 645 00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:53,480 aliens from Zeta Reticuli or whatever as 646 00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:55,040 opposed to actually giving in a car 647 00:24:59,560 --> 00:24:57,230 driving to wherever and doing those 648 00:25:00,700 --> 00:24:59,570 kinds of I mean before you came on gene 649 00:25:03,580 --> 00:25:00,710 and I were having a discussion about 650 00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:03,590 abduction research to an extent and I 651 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:05,360 was saying look one of the things that 652 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:07,130 if you want to do serious research into 653 00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:08,630 abductions you shouldn't be hypnotizing 654 00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:10,460 people and messing about with the brains 655 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:11,870 you should be setting cameras up in 656 00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:13,730 their bedrooms or wherever if that's if 657 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:15,110 that's the locale where it's supposedly 658 00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:17,090 happening and running a prolonged 659 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:19,430 investigation overrate for a long period 660 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:21,650 of time do you think part of the problem 661 00:25:25,570 --> 00:25:23,090 with modern ufology is they just don't 662 00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:25,580 have any patience I guess I'll give 663 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:29,600 crayons to that three things race one is 664 00:25:33,970 --> 00:25:32,150 for the pikemen one in reverse order by 665 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:33,980 the way this means Nikki guns send us a 666 00:25:39,490 --> 00:25:37,490 bill right no gosh yes I don't pay the 667 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:39,500 bill I cinema Paul so he can ignore the 668 00:25:45,130 --> 00:25:41,090 bill okay 669 00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:45,140 well no looks good answer 670 00:25:49,870 --> 00:25:46,760 I'll give I'll do this in reverse order 671 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:49,880 third answer is yeah we're not very 672 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:52,610 patient we're in we're in the YouTube 673 00:25:59,020 --> 00:25:56,290 generation people these days watch TV on 674 00:26:01,180 --> 00:25:59,030 YouTube and sites like that so they go 675 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:01,190 to their favorite clips or it's like did 676 00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:02,810 you see the bit in that one-hour program 677 00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:05,030 where this happened and their watch 678 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:06,880 something so maybe two or three minutes 679 00:26:14,050 --> 00:26:09,890 attention spans are declining 680 00:26:18,150 --> 00:26:14,060 I think so that's one thing I think yes 681 00:26:21,730 --> 00:26:18,160 our attention span isn't just this 682 00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:21,740 decreasing so we don't have time you 683 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:23,600 know our busy modern lives with our 684 00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:26,810 multitasking etc to maybe go out and do 685 00:26:32,940 --> 00:26:28,300 the things that we should do 686 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:32,950 another point is is I think that again 687 00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:36,970 in the modern era there is this tendency 688 00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:39,340 to try and showboat and I'm trying to 689 00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:40,360 answer this question without 690 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:43,030 incriminating myself because arguably 691 00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:45,550 I'm one of the worst offenders somebody 692 00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:48,670 who does pop up on things like Larry 693 00:26:55,470 --> 00:26:51,940 King and Geraldo and Fox News and things 694 00:26:58,140 --> 00:26:55,480 like that but yeah I mean so evidently 695 00:27:01,050 --> 00:26:58,150 if you are in this field and you get a 696 00:27:03,140 --> 00:27:01,060 call from say could you sir and it's 697 00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:03,150 like well would you like to come on 698 00:27:10,530 --> 00:27:07,000 Larry King and talk about this chances 699 00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:10,540 are you will say yes and if it's a 700 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:12,430 choice I mean I would look let me be 701 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:14,830 totally honest with you if it was well 702 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:16,090 you know what I was going to 703 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:18,130 re-interview that with witness and go 704 00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:19,810 out at 2:00 in the morning and traipse 705 00:27:24,090 --> 00:27:21,640 around in the corner of a muddy field in 706 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:24,100 the freezing cold or I was going to go 707 00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:26,050 on a Larry King and we don't know what 708 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:29,440 I'd do so I'm not necessarily proud of 709 00:27:33,420 --> 00:27:31,570 that in investigative terms but I'm just 710 00:27:36,540 --> 00:27:33,430 trying to say that is the real world 711 00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:36,550 whether we like it or not well but at 712 00:27:42,810 --> 00:27:40,470 least you've done some investigation so 713 00:27:44,510 --> 00:27:42,820 hopefully it's those credentials that 714 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:44,520 get me on the show in the first place 715 00:27:48,510 --> 00:27:46,930 but that's not always the way that 716 00:27:50,670 --> 00:27:48,520 television works of course sometimes 717 00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,680 they'll they'll go for people it was 718 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:52,480 just called a sensational story to tell 719 00:27:57,450 --> 00:27:54,700 or a few good soundbite whether or not 720 00:27:59,820 --> 00:27:57,460 they walk the world yeah they also Nick 721 00:28:01,920 --> 00:27:59,830 want to have the Reader's Digest version 722 00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:01,930 of the answer what does it all mean Nick 723 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:04,240 they want disclosure this gets us back 724 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:06,490 to one of the other issues in the UFO 725 00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:08,530 field which is not just being lazy and 726 00:28:12,150 --> 00:28:10,660 not following up and spending more time 727 00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:12,160 dealing with the implications of 728 00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:14,140 something we know nothing about but 729 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:15,940 hoping the government's know now 730 00:28:19,770 --> 00:28:17,890 obviously you were on the inside but 731 00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:19,780 you're constrained by the fact that you 732 00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:23,200 were working for the UK government you 733 00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:25,420 couldn't tell us if you knew could you I 734 00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:27,940 probably couldn't because I signed the 735 00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:30,280 Official Secrets Act that finds me for 736 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:32,860 life what I suspect that I could 737 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:35,320 probably hint at it but I can actually 738 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:37,690 say with hand on heart the scary truth 739 00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:40,090 it certainly so far as the British 740 00:28:43,710 --> 00:28:41,740 government is concerned 741 00:28:45,419 --> 00:28:43,720 is that the powers-that-be the 742 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:45,429 establishment the government the 743 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:47,530 military the intelligence agencies 744 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:51,130 actually know no more about this than 745 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:53,200 your eye on the average person in the 746 00:29:01,290 --> 00:28:57,130 street you know you won't go to some Air 747 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:01,300 Force Base you won't be able to pull 748 00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:03,910 aside the hangar doors and there it is 749 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:07,000 some some great crashed spaceship it's 750 00:29:11,730 --> 00:29:08,170 it's not true 751 00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:11,740 so from that let me follow up and say or 752 00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:14,110 ask you Roswell crash daily and 753 00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:15,790 spacecraft or not a crashed alien 754 00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:17,620 spacecraft because as you know much of 755 00:29:23,310 --> 00:29:20,860 modern ufology is hinged on Roswell and 756 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:23,320 the idea that alien spacecraft are 757 00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:25,330 crashed but from what you just said it 758 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:27,670 sounds to me like you're saying that all 759 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:30,610 of that is not true that there is 760 00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:33,250 another explanation no I'm not so much 761 00:29:37,049 --> 00:29:35,260 saying it's not true I'm saying 762 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:37,059 certainly with regard to Roswell I don't 763 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:40,150 know I mean I did this I work for the 764 00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:42,250 Ministry of Defense for 21 years I did 765 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:45,340 three years on the UFO project but my 766 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:47,890 terms of reference was strictly national 767 00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:50,170 so the things that I did were entirely 768 00:29:56,820 --> 00:29:55,360 UK so I know I had no official access or 769 00:29:59,910 --> 00:29:56,830 knowledge into anything that the 770 00:30:02,460 --> 00:29:59,920 American government may or may not know 771 00:30:05,940 --> 00:30:02,470 about this you know when I look at the 772 00:30:08,010 --> 00:30:05,950 field of ufology and I'm sure we'll get 773 00:30:11,070 --> 00:30:08,020 on to discuss things like exit politics 774 00:30:12,750 --> 00:30:11,080 and disclosure when I see a number of 775 00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:12,760 people and I'm not going to name names 776 00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:15,550 but when I see a number of people who 777 00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:17,679 are absolutely certain that they know 778 00:30:22,410 --> 00:30:20,440 the answers the more I think you know as 779 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:22,420 somebody who served for 21 years in 780 00:30:27,180 --> 00:30:24,130 government show me someone who says I 781 00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:27,190 don't know and they're the real deal 782 00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:28,840 the person that says they know the 783 00:30:37,950 --> 00:30:35,629 [Music] 784 00:30:40,230 --> 00:30:37,960 picture this you're on the phone with a 785 00:30:43,409 --> 00:30:40,240 client or colleague trying to explain 786 00:30:45,629 --> 00:30:43,419 something visual a PowerPoint a keynote 787 00:30:48,299 --> 00:30:45,639 presentation a website but it's 788 00:30:49,259 --> 00:30:48,309 frustrating because they can't see what 789 00:30:52,019 --> 00:30:49,269 you're talking about 790 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:52,029 the solution good news they can if you 791 00:30:57,690 --> 00:30:54,850 invite them to an online meeting using 792 00:30:59,850 --> 00:30:57,700 GoToMeeting then they can see your 793 00:31:02,190 --> 00:30:59,860 computer desktop on their computer 794 00:31:04,379 --> 00:31:02,200 screen so you can show them what you're 795 00:31:05,970 --> 00:31:04,389 talking about I use goto meeting all the 796 00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:05,980 time to collaborate with colleagues and 797 00:31:12,509 --> 00:31:08,799 with clients you can try goto meeting 798 00:31:14,940 --> 00:31:12,519 free for 30 days but you must visit goto 799 00:31:18,570 --> 00:31:14,950 meeting slashed podcasts 800 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:18,580 that's goto meeting.com slash podcasts 801 00:31:30,910 --> 00:31:20,730 for free 30-day trial 802 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:34,220 our co-host Paul Kimball we have Nick 803 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,930 Pope who was once on the inside of UFO 804 00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:38,880 investigation I guess the UK equivalent 805 00:31:43,790 --> 00:31:41,790 of Captain Edward J rappel remember him 806 00:31:46,790 --> 00:31:43,800 before your time way before probably 807 00:31:50,420 --> 00:31:46,800 well I remember him certainly in terms 808 00:31:53,150 --> 00:31:50,430 of if anyone ever asks me to recommend a 809 00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:53,160 UFO book I actually recommend his I say 810 00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:54,720 you know it's maybe long forgotten 811 00:31:58,370 --> 00:31:56,880 little bit unfashionable but it'll 812 00:31:59,980 --> 00:31:58,380 probably teach you more about ethology 813 00:32:03,470 --> 00:31:59,990 than anything else on the bookshelves 814 00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:03,480 okay now we mentioned disclosure and we 815 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:06,390 have certain people who go around saying 816 00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:08,130 we want the government to tell them 817 00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:09,480 there's nothing new about that major 818 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:12,240 Donald Kehoe did that in 1956 with a 819 00:32:17,870 --> 00:32:14,370 book called the flying saucer conspiracy 820 00:32:19,610 --> 00:32:17,880 so are we suggesting then these people 821 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:19,620 are basically barking up the wrong tree 822 00:32:25,910 --> 00:32:22,110 when they make these demands yes I think 823 00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:25,920 they are I think there's what I call the 824 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:28,380 demonization of government and this is 825 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:30,450 the idea that government here are the 826 00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:33,360 bad guys the military the bad guys there 827 00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:35,220 are somehow the custodians are some 828 00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:37,800 great secret that they keeping from the 829 00:32:44,390 --> 00:32:41,120 people and when you have that 830 00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:44,400 adversarial relationship when you have 831 00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:47,460 we are good they are bad we're for 832 00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:51,870 freedom therefore cover-up we are for 833 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:54,270 truth therefore lies you won't actually 834 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:56,130 get anywhere not least because these 835 00:33:00,350 --> 00:32:58,410 people won't engage with you and as I 836 00:33:04,940 --> 00:33:00,360 say it comes back to the point I think 837 00:33:07,910 --> 00:33:04,950 that what if as I actually believe in 838 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:07,920 the case government doesn't know about 839 00:33:14,270 --> 00:33:10,530 this isn't keeping some great secret 840 00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:14,280 from the people is not withholding the 841 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:17,190 truth so all this effort that goes into 842 00:33:23,510 --> 00:33:20,910 kind of trying to break down some 843 00:33:25,370 --> 00:33:23,520 conspiracy some camera he's wasted 844 00:33:28,940 --> 00:33:25,380 effort because the conspiracy on the 845 00:33:32,420 --> 00:33:28,950 camera isn't there my point is this if 846 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:32,430 all that passion for that energy evil 847 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:35,370 that time was reconfigured onto 848 00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:39,660 something more constructive be it mud on 849 00:33:44,659 --> 00:33:40,740 boots 850 00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:44,669 investigation viet targeted FOI request 851 00:33:49,970 --> 00:33:47,220 that might turn up some interesting 852 00:33:54,409 --> 00:33:49,980 material then I think we might be better 853 00:33:57,619 --> 00:33:54,419 off but for all the times that people 854 00:34:00,499 --> 00:33:57,629 are screaming and shouting and trying to 855 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:00,509 suggest that the government changes 856 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:02,330 policy I mean if the government actually 857 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:06,330 doesn't know it's all wasted energy that 858 00:34:10,819 --> 00:34:08,129 takes us back to Roswell then of course 859 00:34:13,339 --> 00:34:10,829 because the only way Roswell can be 860 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:13,349 authentic would be for the government to 861 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:15,510 have actually been involved in some sort 862 00:34:21,770 --> 00:34:18,690 of conspiracy to recover evidence of a 863 00:34:25,069 --> 00:34:21,780 UFO visitation a crash saucer 864 00:34:26,899 --> 00:34:25,079 the aliens etc etc and if the government 865 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:26,909 doesn't know then that says Roswell 866 00:34:31,099 --> 00:34:28,649 probably didn't happen in that fashion 867 00:34:34,750 --> 00:34:31,109 it may not have done but I think whether 868 00:34:37,369 --> 00:34:34,760 it did or not Roswell is problematic 869 00:34:39,889 --> 00:34:37,379 simply by virtue of the time that's 870 00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:39,899 elapsed if you're looking into any 871 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:41,550 incident whether it's something like 872 00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:44,609 Roswell or whether it's some I don't 873 00:34:49,339 --> 00:34:46,950 know some controversy say in the Second 874 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:49,349 World War if you're dealing with a 875 00:34:54,589 --> 00:34:52,649 situation where few if any of the 876 00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,599 contemporary witnesses are alive and 877 00:35:00,380 --> 00:34:55,919 you're dealing with second and third 878 00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,390 hand testimony compounded by a situation 879 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:02,640 where for whatever reason contemporary 880 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:05,730 records are not available you're dealing 881 00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:08,730 with an issue that's really passing from 882 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:12,480 I don't know almost historical record 883 00:35:17,390 --> 00:35:15,450 into legend and I just think it's going 884 00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:17,400 to be difficult if not impossible to 885 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:20,040 disentangle all that it also goes to 886 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:22,410 reliability of witness testimony which 887 00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:25,410 is can somebody 50 or 60 years later 888 00:35:30,319 --> 00:35:28,079 really recall what happened because 889 00:35:32,539 --> 00:35:30,329 their minds been polluted by a lot of 890 00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:32,549 pop culture about UFO so something 891 00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:36,000 really happened in 1947 and you don't 892 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:39,569 get to these people till 1977 87 97 893 00:35:44,420 --> 00:35:41,970 after that have lifetime of experiences 894 00:35:46,579 --> 00:35:44,430 can we really depend on what they tell 895 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:46,589 us well I think that would need a 896 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:49,170 psychologist to to answer it but I'll 897 00:35:53,839 --> 00:35:50,490 give you a little personal alley 898 00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:53,849 anecdote I left the Ministry of Defense 899 00:36:02,210 --> 00:35:54,590 in 900 00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:02,220 six months or a year after it happened 901 00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:04,680 and of course resigning from government 902 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:06,990 service after 21 years leaving the 903 00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:08,370 Ministry of Defence was well the most 904 00:36:14,330 --> 00:36:10,260 momentous decisions that I personally 905 00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:14,340 made in my life I'm telling people this 906 00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:20,190 anecdote about it hell on the day on 907 00:36:28,490 --> 00:36:24,870 which I left was was the day in which a 908 00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:28,500 woman came to live with me in my house 909 00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:31,260 and I was telling this anecdote for 910 00:36:36,110 --> 00:36:33,300 months and months until I realized it 911 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:36,120 was totally wrong and when I checked my 912 00:36:42,380 --> 00:36:39,570 Diaries I realized I was confusing the 913 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:42,390 day on which I had left with the day on 914 00:36:47,050 --> 00:36:44,490 which I had tendered my resignation and 915 00:36:49,850 --> 00:36:47,060 I had to give I think six months notice 916 00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:49,860 so now if I could get something so 917 00:36:57,230 --> 00:36:53,220 fundamental wrong just a matter of 918 00:36:58,820 --> 00:36:57,240 months afterwards what are we to make of 919 00:37:02,420 --> 00:36:58,830 people who are trying to recollect 920 00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:02,430 something that happened decades ago and 921 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:04,430 I'd said I mean it's a slightly 922 00:37:09,770 --> 00:37:06,810 frivolous anecdote but I think it 923 00:37:13,210 --> 00:37:09,780 illustrates the point quite well memory 924 00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:13,220 human memory is extraordinarily 925 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:16,560 unreliable to be fair and this will come 926 00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:18,210 as a surprise to people because I will 927 00:37:21,470 --> 00:37:20,280 now defend the Roswell witnesses even 928 00:37:23,930 --> 00:37:21,480 though I don't think Roswell was the 929 00:37:25,490 --> 00:37:23,940 crash from alien spacecraft but witness 930 00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:25,500 testimony in general I agree with what 931 00:37:31,010 --> 00:37:27,960 you said Nick memory is a touchy subject 932 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:31,020 especially with the passage of time with 933 00:37:35,090 --> 00:37:33,450 each day that passes I think the odds 934 00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:35,100 are that your memories 935 00:37:39,410 --> 00:37:37,070 I know UFO people hate the term can 936 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:39,420 confabulation and and all that sort of 937 00:37:44,330 --> 00:37:42,090 stuff but it does happen so I wouldn't 938 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:44,340 rely solely on the witnesses but if you 939 00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:46,410 can get two or three or four witnesses 940 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:48,900 who independently are saying more or 941 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:50,250 less the same thing 942 00:37:53,030 --> 00:37:51,690 there should be differences in their 943 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:53,040 stories when you start seeing people 944 00:37:57,530 --> 00:37:55,110 tell the exact same story that's when 945 00:37:59,150 --> 00:37:57,540 you should raise a red flag but if you 946 00:38:02,060 --> 00:37:59,160 see people telling slightly different 947 00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:02,070 stories but the core of the story is the 948 00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:03,670 same in each case 949 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:07,089 and if then you can buttress that and I 950 00:38:10,859 --> 00:38:08,410 think this is why the mj-12 documents 951 00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:10,869 became so important to so many people in 952 00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:12,910 the 80s if you can buttress witness 953 00:38:17,220 --> 00:38:15,400 testimony with documentary evidence or 954 00:38:19,140 --> 00:38:17,230 physical evidence would be great but if 955 00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:19,150 you can find it's like Bill Clinton's 956 00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:21,520 triangulation if you can it's not just 957 00:38:25,770 --> 00:38:23,760 one thing it's all of these things 958 00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:25,780 confirming these other things 959 00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:27,760 independently then I think witness 960 00:38:32,670 --> 00:38:29,920 testimony is reliable especially if you 961 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:32,680 can confirm it the question is with 962 00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:35,049 Roswell having said that request with 963 00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:36,880 Roswell is well where is the confirming 964 00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:38,470 evidence there is no physical evidence 965 00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:41,049 so then you're left with okay you either 966 00:38:44,730 --> 00:38:42,940 need other witnesses who can confirm it 967 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:44,740 all of whom have the same problems the 968 00:38:48,539 --> 00:38:46,210 gene and you have talked about with 969 00:38:50,430 --> 00:38:48,549 memory and time elapse and all that sort 970 00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:50,440 of stuff and you don't have any 971 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:52,420 documentary evidence unless you of 972 00:38:56,460 --> 00:38:54,490 course except the mj-12 documents as 973 00:38:58,559 --> 00:38:56,470 legitimate which most of you follow gee 974 00:39:00,210 --> 00:38:58,569 doesn't so as you said and Nick Redfern 975 00:39:02,670 --> 00:39:00,220 and a bunch of other people have said 976 00:39:05,099 --> 00:39:02,680 you know the Roswell cases is very 977 00:39:07,950 --> 00:39:05,109 difficult one to deal with which is why 978 00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:07,960 I sort of say well okay don't then say 979 00:39:12,870 --> 00:39:10,960 that asserted as a proven fact but there 980 00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:12,880 are cases look at this here's a radio 981 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:15,190 segue for you boys there are cases that 982 00:39:23,730 --> 00:39:19,569 are perhaps better than Roswell what are 983 00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:23,740 some of those cases what I told you and 984 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:25,030 I interviewed you for my film best 985 00:39:29,970 --> 00:39:27,010 evidence top 10 UFO sightings for Jana 986 00:39:31,650 --> 00:39:29,980 Bosch plug and you gave me your list of 987 00:39:33,930 --> 00:39:31,660 top 10 cases and you might not remember 988 00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:33,940 what you had is your number one case but 989 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:36,430 I believe it was either Cosford or the 990 00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:38,890 Belgian triangle case so you know what 991 00:39:42,750 --> 00:39:40,240 I'll split the difference and ask you to 992 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:42,760 tell us about both of those cases and 993 00:39:47,549 --> 00:39:45,130 why you think they're among the best UFO 994 00:39:49,289 --> 00:39:47,559 cases ever I'll do that and seeing as 995 00:39:51,530 --> 00:39:49,299 this is quite a lengthy interview we'll 996 00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:51,540 probably move on to rent orders later 997 00:39:56,849 --> 00:39:54,700 just as they were that may well have 998 00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:56,859 been some somewhat in my mind as well 999 00:40:02,970 --> 00:40:00,880 let's start with the Belgium triangle 1000 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:02,980 let's let's do this in chronological 1001 00:40:09,569 --> 00:40:05,530 order then the setting aside Rendlesham 1002 00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:09,579 but yeah Belgium had of course had a 1003 00:40:16,910 --> 00:40:14,160 wave of sightings starting in 1989 1004 00:40:21,860 --> 00:40:16,920 moving into 1990 1005 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:21,870 there have been some scrambles of f-16s 1006 00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:25,050 that the aircraft on cue are a quick 1007 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:27,420 reaction alert on one occasion it turned 1008 00:40:32,090 --> 00:40:29,310 out that I think they've been scrambled 1009 00:40:36,130 --> 00:40:32,100 erroneously in response to I think some 1010 00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:36,140 laser or searchlight display some some 1011 00:40:44,810 --> 00:40:40,200 events on the ground and the protocol 1012 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:44,820 sets up that I think in response to UFO 1013 00:40:50,350 --> 00:40:47,760 sightings no aircraft would be scrambled 1014 00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:50,360 unless there was something tracked on 1015 00:40:55,970 --> 00:40:54,660 the radar and assessed by the air 1016 00:40:58,760 --> 00:40:55,980 traffic controllers the fighter 1017 00:41:02,930 --> 00:40:58,770 controllers as being a solid structured 1018 00:41:04,820 --> 00:41:02,940 craft and on 30th of March 1990 that 1019 00:41:06,740 --> 00:41:04,830 happened there were visual sightings 1020 00:41:08,930 --> 00:41:06,750 there were reports coming in from all 1021 00:41:09,790 --> 00:41:08,940 over the country from the shaandaar 1022 00:41:14,030 --> 00:41:09,800 Murray 1023 00:41:16,070 --> 00:41:14,040 there were uncorrelated targets being 1024 00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,080 tracked on the radar and of course this 1025 00:41:20,510 --> 00:41:18,480 was Belgian national radar the Air Force 1026 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:20,520 radar but it's also integrated into the 1027 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:24,810 wider NATO Network and they scrambled to 1028 00:41:32,570 --> 00:41:28,290 Essex teens the Essex teens got airborne 1029 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:32,580 the pilots picked up the UFO on their 1030 00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:33,330 airborne 1031 00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:36,660 radars they attempted to lock-on not not 1032 00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:38,880 to shoot this thing down I hasten to add 1033 00:41:41,570 --> 00:41:40,950 but but to try and intercept to get a 1034 00:41:45,020 --> 00:41:41,580 closer look 1035 00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:45,030 and basically the UFO whatever it was 1036 00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:46,350 they lost the mark 1037 00:41:52,010 --> 00:41:49,680 maybe the UFO evaded this bizarre game 1038 00:41:55,730 --> 00:41:52,020 of cat-and-mouse as it were played 1039 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:55,740 itself out in the skies over Belgium for 1040 00:42:00,520 --> 00:41:57,530 a period of time 1041 00:42:03,980 --> 00:42:00,530 skeptics talk about anomalous 1042 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:03,990 propagation maybe certain meteorological 1043 00:42:08,930 --> 00:42:06,450 conditions that can give rise to false 1044 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:08,940 radar returns they also suggest perhaps 1045 00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:11,310 that there was some secret prototype 1046 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:16,230 aircraft or drone being test flown in 1047 00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:19,170 Belgian airspace to see whether it would 1048 00:42:23,890 --> 00:42:22,140 actually show up on radar and and how 1049 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:23,900 people would respond in real time 1050 00:42:29,450 --> 00:42:27,330 general wilfred de Brouwer who was chief 1051 00:42:30,620 --> 00:42:29,460 of staff and give the belgian air force 1052 00:42:31,849 --> 00:42:30,630 at the time 1053 00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:31,859 they know as far as he was concerned 1054 00:42:36,349 --> 00:42:34,500 this was a real incident it was a solid 1055 00:42:44,990 --> 00:42:36,359 object to pay and it was a genuine 1056 00:42:47,210 --> 00:42:45,000 unknown so it's a fascinating case fate 1057 00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:47,220 magazine provides true reports of the 1058 00:42:51,769 --> 00:42:49,200 strange and unknown keep up with the 1059 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:51,779 latest on angels and miracles psychic 1060 00:42:55,849 --> 00:42:54,930 phenomena ghosts UFOs life after death 1061 00:42:58,279 --> 00:42:55,859 and much much more 1062 00:43:00,920 --> 00:42:58,289 to receive your free issue of faith 1063 00:43:04,849 --> 00:43:00,930 magazine call now at one eight hundred 1064 00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:04,859 seven two eight two seven three zero or 1065 00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:09,630 visit their website at wwlp.com that's 1066 00:43:21,230 --> 00:43:12,569 one eight hundred seven two eight twenty 1067 00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:21,240 seven thirty or WWF AEMA g.com what are 1068 00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:22,079 you waiting for 1069 00:43:28,859 --> 00:43:24,380 your fate awaits 1070 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:31,650 you've entered another dimension you've 1071 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:33,050 entered the Americas 1072 00:43:46,890 --> 00:43:51,630 [Music] 1073 00:43:57,610 --> 00:43:55,060 we have nick pope who worked from the 1074 00:44:00,610 --> 00:43:57,620 inside in terms of UFO investigation not 1075 00:44:02,740 --> 00:44:00,620 inside a UFO I have to correct that our 1076 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:02,750 co-host is Paul Kimball yeah just go 1077 00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:05,690 back to the belgian case for a second 1078 00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:08,480 Nick what about some of the explanations 1079 00:44:11,860 --> 00:44:09,680 that have been put forward the most 1080 00:44:13,060 --> 00:44:11,870 often one that you will hear which as 1081 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:13,070 far as I can tell the Belgian 1082 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:14,810 authorities including general de Brouwer 1083 00:44:19,780 --> 00:44:17,690 said well no that couldn't be but you 1084 00:44:21,970 --> 00:44:19,790 often hear skeptics well you and I are 1085 00:44:23,620 --> 00:44:21,980 skeptics you often hear disbelievers 1086 00:44:25,060 --> 00:44:23,630 that's what I'll call them who will 1087 00:44:27,010 --> 00:44:25,070 simply say well of course it was an 1088 00:44:29,140 --> 00:44:27,020 American it was a top-secret American 1089 00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:29,150 military aircraft and they didn't bother 1090 00:44:33,790 --> 00:44:31,730 to tell the Belgian Air Force or anybody 1091 00:44:36,730 --> 00:44:33,800 else the two things about that what do 1092 00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:36,740 you think of that explanation and to is 1093 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:39,520 it just in general is it possible that 1094 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:42,770 many UFO cases could be top-secret 1095 00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:45,250 experimental aircraft that perhaps even 1096 00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:47,870 elements within say the United States 1097 00:44:51,340 --> 00:44:49,520 Air Force or the Belgian Air Force might 1098 00:44:52,810 --> 00:44:51,350 not know are going on even as other 1099 00:44:54,070 --> 00:44:52,820 elements within the Air Force or the 1100 00:44:55,810 --> 00:44:54,080 government are conducting these 1101 00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:55,820 experiments so kind of a two-pronged 1102 00:45:00,280 --> 00:44:57,770 question how does it apply to Belgium in 1103 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:00,290 particular but how does it apply to UFO 1104 00:45:06,250 --> 00:45:02,450 cases in general okay I'm going to do 1105 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:06,260 this in reverse order again on on the 1106 00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:08,690 general point yes absolutely of course 1107 00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:12,560 at any given time there are various 1108 00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:17,150 secret prototype aircraft and drones 1109 00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:19,910 some experimental some actually 1110 00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:23,510 operational will be flying around that 1111 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:26,630 have not yet been publicly declared that 1112 00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:28,610 when you won't see at the be air shows 1113 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:32,480 for 10 maybe 15 years so I think that's 1114 00:45:38,830 --> 00:45:35,690 taken as a given but to qualify that and 1115 00:45:41,140 --> 00:45:38,840 don't tend to fly those things over the 1116 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:41,150 heads of the general public the UK and 1117 00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:46,930 to fly them in fairly remote restricted 1118 00:45:58,030 --> 00:45:52,240 ranges danger areas and such why yes we 1119 00:45:58,780 --> 00:45:58,040 wait exactly yes so yes there are black 1120 00:46:02,380 --> 00:45:58,790 project 1121 00:46:03,579 --> 00:46:02,390 secret prototypes but I actually don't 1122 00:46:07,509 --> 00:46:03,589 think that they 1123 00:46:11,890 --> 00:46:07,519 they explain an awful lot of these UFO 1124 00:46:14,349 --> 00:46:11,900 sightings now in relation to Belgium he 1125 00:46:17,019 --> 00:46:14,359 said could this be could this have been 1126 00:46:20,759 --> 00:46:17,029 an American project that that they'd 1127 00:46:24,609 --> 00:46:20,769 flown over and that they had maybe 1128 00:46:27,459 --> 00:46:24,619 either forgotten to notify or more 1129 00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:27,469 likely this I guess the question is well 1130 00:46:32,140 --> 00:46:29,390 maybe these things are on such a limited 1131 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:32,150 need to know that you wouldn't declare 1132 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:34,729 them to maybe the Belgian authorities I 1133 00:46:39,819 --> 00:46:37,249 think the difficulty with that theory is 1134 00:46:43,539 --> 00:46:39,829 this territorial integrity of your 1135 00:46:47,469 --> 00:46:43,549 national airspace is is amongst the most 1136 00:46:48,309 --> 00:46:47,479 touchy of issues when it comes to this 1137 00:46:52,809 --> 00:46:48,319 sort of thing 1138 00:46:54,729 --> 00:46:52,819 and diplomatic clearance has to be 1139 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:54,739 sought when you're flying any aircraft 1140 00:46:59,620 --> 00:46:57,170 into another country's airspace whether 1141 00:47:01,870 --> 00:46:59,630 or not you're an ally you know even if 1142 00:47:04,209 --> 00:47:01,880 you're the best of friends it's it's a 1143 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:04,219 matter of national pride it's almost 1144 00:47:08,890 --> 00:47:06,650 impossible to put it into words but you 1145 00:47:12,339 --> 00:47:08,900 can be the best friends in the world but 1146 00:47:16,660 --> 00:47:12,349 you you can't do that the other thing is 1147 00:47:18,849 --> 00:47:16,670 look if you were running a test to fly 1148 00:47:23,739 --> 00:47:18,859 some sort of secret prototype aircraft 1149 00:47:26,890 --> 00:47:23,749 or drone into controlled airspace to see 1150 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:26,900 weather without notification people 1151 00:47:33,249 --> 00:47:29,529 detected it to see how they responded 1152 00:47:35,650 --> 00:47:33,259 you wouldn't actually want the 1153 00:47:37,779 --> 00:47:35,660 additional complication of it being 1154 00:47:39,519 --> 00:47:37,789 another country you would just do it to 1155 00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:39,529 your own people so when you're doing 1156 00:47:45,339 --> 00:47:42,319 those sorts of tests if it's an American 1157 00:47:48,459 --> 00:47:45,349 drone or aircraft you would simply try 1158 00:47:50,739 --> 00:47:48,469 and penetrate American airspace because 1159 00:47:53,709 --> 00:47:50,749 otherwise I mean the consequences in 1160 00:47:56,410 --> 00:47:53,719 terms of the diplomatic fallout would be 1161 00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,420 immense I'm not a believer that that the 1162 00:48:01,180 --> 00:47:58,400 Belgian case is attributable to 1163 00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:01,190 Americans probing Belgian defenses 1164 00:48:04,930 --> 00:48:02,960 because in my experience that's not the 1165 00:48:06,430 --> 00:48:04,940 way it worked I think that's actually a 1166 00:48:08,620 --> 00:48:06,440 great point that you don't often hear 1167 00:48:10,959 --> 00:48:08,630 even people within the UFO research 1168 00:48:12,819 --> 00:48:10,969 community talk about they're often 1169 00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:12,829 divorced from the political or 1170 00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:15,350 historical realities of the real world 1171 00:48:18,460 --> 00:48:16,880 and there are very real world as you 1172 00:48:19,630 --> 00:48:18,470 point out cause which people who are 1173 00:48:22,180 --> 00:48:19,640 familiar with political and military 1174 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:22,190 policy would know very real-world 1175 00:48:26,170 --> 00:48:24,530 consequences of doing something as the 1176 00:48:28,660 --> 00:48:26,180 American Air Force are alleged to have 1177 00:48:31,060 --> 00:48:28,670 done in over Belgium I can tell you as a 1178 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:31,070 Canadian that the Americans would be ill 1179 00:48:35,830 --> 00:48:33,170 served to be trying to fly test aircraft 1180 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:35,840 over our national airspace and a further 1181 00:48:41,050 --> 00:48:37,810 complication would be I would think that 1182 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:41,060 you wouldn't want the Belgian Air Force 1183 00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:42,770 or any other Air Force scrambling 1184 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:44,960 interceptor jets on the off chance that 1185 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:46,250 they might actually shoot your test 1186 00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:52,370 aircraft down risky to be all sorts of 1187 00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:55,790 reasons political and military but that 1188 00:49:00,040 --> 00:48:57,890 one if you'll excuse the pun doesn't fly 1189 00:49:05,170 --> 00:49:00,050 very good very good I like that that's a 1190 00:49:07,660 --> 00:49:05,180 good pose that's job it's very punny the 1191 00:49:09,310 --> 00:49:07,670 cost furred case then which and I'm just 1192 00:49:11,350 --> 00:49:09,320 gonna say one word to you before you 1193 00:49:14,020 --> 00:49:11,360 even begin to talk to Kyle about Cosford 1194 00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:14,030 and then you can bring this part of this 1195 00:49:19,570 --> 00:49:16,720 word into your cost for discussion 1196 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:19,580 helicopters go ahead Nick talks about 1197 00:49:25,810 --> 00:49:23,450 the costs per case okay well before you 1198 00:49:29,710 --> 00:49:25,820 start with because for taste let me 1199 00:49:32,110 --> 00:49:29,720 actually unpack as we like to say one 1200 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:32,120 another interesting little piece of 1201 00:49:38,110 --> 00:49:35,690 trivia about this incident the 1202 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:38,120 interesting piece of trivia is that it 1203 00:49:42,820 --> 00:49:40,730 occurred three years to the very night 1204 00:49:45,340 --> 00:49:42,830 after the Belgian cases that we've just 1205 00:49:48,610 --> 00:49:45,350 been discussing the Belgian case was 1206 00:49:52,900 --> 00:49:48,620 late on the 30th and in the early hours 1207 00:49:55,060 --> 00:49:52,910 of the 31st of March 1990 the cost of 1208 00:49:58,540 --> 00:49:55,070 incident took place over a period of six 1209 00:50:02,140 --> 00:49:58,550 hours yes when 30th of March 31st of 1210 00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:02,150 March 1993 right in the middle of my 1211 00:50:09,310 --> 00:50:05,420 time on the UFO project as I say a wave 1212 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:09,320 of sightings the earliest one I haven't 1213 00:50:13,770 --> 00:50:10,850 got the foil in front of me it's been 1214 00:50:18,580 --> 00:50:13,780 Declassified and released now by MIT but 1215 00:50:23,890 --> 00:50:18,590 really exciting I believe 8:30 on the 1216 00:50:27,650 --> 00:50:23,900 30th of March the latest one 2:40 in the 1217 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:27,660 morning on the 31st sightings 1218 00:50:31,970 --> 00:50:29,970 witnessed by several hundred people that 1219 00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:31,980 we know about probably a lot more that 1220 00:50:37,339 --> 00:50:34,319 didn't report many of those witnesses 1221 00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:37,349 were police officers military personnel 1222 00:50:42,289 --> 00:50:40,440 and particularly the reason this this 1223 00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:42,299 incident is even known as the cost for 1224 00:50:47,150 --> 00:50:44,910 the incident to military bases to air 1225 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:47,160 force bases Cosford and Shawbury were 1226 00:50:54,620 --> 00:50:50,970 directly overflown by this patrol of air 1227 00:50:58,579 --> 00:50:54,630 force police officers sorted RAF Cosford 1228 00:51:01,339 --> 00:50:58,589 and the Met officer at RAF Shawbury saw 1229 00:51:04,990 --> 00:51:01,349 this now the main officer is someone who 1230 00:51:07,700 --> 00:51:05,000 I've spoken to on a number of occasions 1231 00:51:10,099 --> 00:51:07,710 firstly of course you know literally 1232 00:51:12,289 --> 00:51:10,109 just three or four hours after he had 1233 00:51:14,210 --> 00:51:12,299 his sighting this was a man with eight 1234 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:14,220 years experience in the Air Force and 1235 00:51:21,250 --> 00:51:16,410 and he said he saw this large triangular 1236 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:21,260 shaped craft midway in size between a 1237 00:51:30,140 --> 00:51:24,930 c-130 hercules transport and a boeing 1238 00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:30,150 747 flying slowly towards the base maybe 1239 00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:33,180 no more than 30 or 40 miles an hour at 1240 00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:36,529 200 feet above the ground 200 feet maybe 1241 00:51:43,490 --> 00:51:40,079 to the side firing a narrow beam of 1242 00:51:45,380 --> 00:51:43,500 light ground that he said was tracking 1243 00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:45,390 backwards and forwards as if it was 1244 00:51:49,849 --> 00:51:47,760 looking for something he said there was 1245 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:49,859 a low-frequency humming sound coming 1246 00:51:54,769 --> 00:51:52,410 from this craft quite unpleasant row 1247 00:51:57,140 --> 00:51:54,779 like standing in front of a base speaker 1248 00:51:59,450 --> 00:51:57,150 he said he could feel this as well as 1249 00:52:03,289 --> 00:51:59,460 hearing and he said suddenly from going 1250 00:52:05,569 --> 00:52:03,299 very very slowly the beam just switched 1251 00:52:09,529 --> 00:52:05,579 off and this thing accelerated away to 1252 00:52:12,740 --> 00:52:09,539 the horizon his words many many times 1253 00:52:14,210 --> 00:52:12,750 faster than a military jet and this was 1254 00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:14,220 this was a man with eight years 1255 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:16,710 experience in the Air Force so what do 1256 00:52:25,069 --> 00:52:22,770 you make of it it takes me back to my 1257 00:52:26,359 --> 00:52:25,079 days briefly in a courtroom you know 1258 00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:26,369 just sort of go well what do you make of 1259 00:52:34,849 --> 00:52:31,200 it ya know I don't I don't know my head 1260 00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:34,859 of Division III was the desk officer the 1261 00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:36,960 subject-matter expert as it were my head 1262 00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:39,119 of division considerably more senior 1263 00:52:43,630 --> 00:52:40,160 than me 1264 00:52:46,270 --> 00:52:43,640 thought that the whole UFO issue was a 1265 00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:46,280 waste of time and money didn't want the 1266 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:50,089 UFO project embedded in his division at 1267 00:52:55,930 --> 00:52:54,170 all even he on this occasion got quite 1268 00:52:58,599 --> 00:52:55,940 excited and on one occasion almost 1269 00:53:00,970 --> 00:52:58,609 literally ran into my office with a map 1270 00:53:03,460 --> 00:53:00,980 that he'd drawn on his own initiative 1271 00:53:06,190 --> 00:53:03,470 trying to plot out the track of of all 1272 00:53:08,109 --> 00:53:06,200 the sightings I mean he was telling me 1273 00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:08,119 that he'd found some sort of pattern 1274 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:10,220 which actually I don't think he had but 1275 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:13,010 some interesting insight into the 1276 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:15,170 psychology of belief that this diehard 1277 00:53:20,740 --> 00:53:18,890 skeptic this dyed-in-the-wool civil 1278 00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:20,750 servant who thought this whole thing was 1279 00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:22,880 a waste of time and money was was 1280 00:53:30,609 --> 00:53:28,609 suddenly Nick Nick look at this he 1281 00:53:33,849 --> 00:53:30,619 briefed the assistant chief of the air 1282 00:53:36,279 --> 00:53:33,859 staff a two-star military officer one of 1283 00:53:40,270 --> 00:53:36,289 Britain's most senior Air Force officers 1284 00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:40,280 and again I hadn't ungraded the papers 1285 00:53:46,089 --> 00:53:42,980 in front of me but from memory the quote 1286 00:53:48,279 --> 00:53:46,099 was in summary that would seem to be 1287 00:53:52,329 --> 00:53:48,289 some evidence that on the night in 1288 00:53:57,700 --> 00:53:52,339 question an object or objects of unknown 1289 00:54:00,250 --> 00:53:57,710 origin was operating in UK airspace so 1290 00:54:02,740 --> 00:54:00,260 have I got it wrong because I I'm ention 1291 00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:02,750 helicopters I vaguely remembered maybe 1292 00:54:07,089 --> 00:54:05,690 I'm wrong about this wasn't that one of 1293 00:54:08,829 --> 00:54:07,099 the explanations that was brought out 1294 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:08,839 for the cosford case or am I thinking of 1295 00:54:21,309 --> 00:54:18,730 mean you know people talk about a vast 1296 00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:21,319 triangular-shaped object firing a beam 1297 00:54:28,299 --> 00:54:25,760 of light there was a letter in the Daily 1298 00:54:32,799 --> 00:54:28,309 Mail which is one of our national daily 1299 00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:32,809 newspapers but no one could actually be 1300 00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:34,670 sure whether it wasn't actually written 1301 00:54:42,010 --> 00:54:39,920 by a skeptical UFO bus said oh it was a 1302 00:54:44,349 --> 00:54:42,020 police helicopter shiny it's search 1303 00:54:45,099 --> 00:54:44,359 right that's what I'm thinking of yeah 1304 00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:45,109 yeah 1305 00:54:50,980 --> 00:54:48,799 but a there was some suspicion and I got 1306 00:54:51,690 --> 00:54:50,990 an email to say that some skeptic wrote 1307 00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:51,700 that letter 1308 00:54:57,450 --> 00:54:55,750 himself we this you know the witness was 1309 00:54:59,849 --> 00:54:57,460 an air force officer with eight years 1310 00:55:01,740 --> 00:54:59,859 experience and and he said look this 1311 00:55:05,790 --> 00:55:01,750 traveled many times faster than a 1312 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:05,800 military jet something like an f-15 and 1313 00:55:11,849 --> 00:55:08,530 f-16 something like that now I know an 1314 00:55:13,770 --> 00:55:11,859 awful lot about helicopters but you know 1315 00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:13,780 and I'm not the world's greatest expert 1316 00:55:17,310 --> 00:55:15,609 but one thing I do know is that they 1317 00:55:24,990 --> 00:55:17,320 don't do that 1318 00:55:27,329 --> 00:55:25,000 well no helicopters that we know of you 1319 00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:27,339 mentioned before make about the fact 1320 00:55:32,910 --> 00:55:30,160 that person you work with who was more 1321 00:55:35,370 --> 00:55:32,920 or less not interested in having this 1322 00:55:38,460 --> 00:55:35,380 job in a sense of being saddled with 1323 00:55:41,370 --> 00:55:38,470 having to check into flying saucers do 1324 00:55:43,020 --> 00:55:41,380 you think as a result that maybe some 1325 00:55:46,829 --> 00:55:43,030 evidence or information you could have 1326 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:46,839 acquired wasn't acquired because of the 1327 00:55:52,829 --> 00:55:50,290 disinterest I wouldn't say that but I 1328 00:55:56,010 --> 00:55:52,839 think there were constraints put on my 1329 00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:56,020 activity I mean my terms of reference as 1330 00:56:02,270 --> 00:55:58,240 I think I mentioned earlier were purely 1331 00:56:05,819 --> 00:56:02,280 national so I was almost exclusively 1332 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:05,829 limited to researching investigating 1333 00:56:14,010 --> 00:56:08,650 sightings that had occurred within the 1334 00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:14,020 United Kingdom on occasion I could maybe 1335 00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:16,089 make some inquiries a little bit wider 1336 00:56:22,140 --> 00:56:19,510 for example on the Cosford incident 1337 00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:22,150 because of the similarity not not least 1338 00:56:27,450 --> 00:56:24,880 the spooky coincidence of 1339 00:56:30,599 --> 00:56:27,460 the dates and the times it was three 1340 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:30,609 years to the day after we actually did 1341 00:56:36,930 --> 00:56:32,530 manage to make some inquiries through 1342 00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:36,940 the British Embassy in in Brussels and I 1343 00:56:42,589 --> 00:56:40,240 think the era tache the British era TAS 1344 00:56:46,380 --> 00:56:42,599 a attache or the British ambassador 1345 00:56:50,460 --> 00:56:46,390 managed to speak I think to Colonel de 1346 00:56:54,089 --> 00:56:50,470 Brouwer then I think by then general to 1347 00:56:57,030 --> 00:56:54,099 power cause promotion and to the to f-16 1348 00:57:00,210 --> 00:56:57,040 pilots but generally speaking my terms 1349 00:57:02,250 --> 00:57:00,220 of reference placed limits on what I 1350 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:02,260 could do and it may well be that the 1351 00:57:07,450 --> 00:57:05,090 skepticism of my head of division 1352 00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:07,460 we enforce that I might have had a 1353 00:57:11,650 --> 00:57:09,830 little bit more leeway had this 1354 00:57:14,230 --> 00:57:11,660 particular individual being a little bit 1355 00:57:18,250 --> 00:57:14,240 being a little bit more open so I don't 1356 00:57:21,130 --> 00:57:18,260 think I don't think it it stopped me 1357 00:57:23,380 --> 00:57:21,140 from uncovering some great truth about 1358 00:57:25,570 --> 00:57:23,390 all this it was an inconvenience but it 1359 00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:25,580 wasn't it wasn't a conspiracy and it 1360 00:57:29,340 --> 00:57:27,680 wasn't a showstopper now of course some 1361 00:57:31,780 --> 00:57:29,350 of the skeptics were involved in 1362 00:57:33,910 --> 00:57:31,790 disclosure of skeptics of what you did 1363 00:57:35,890 --> 00:57:33,920 going to say number one Nick knows 1364 00:57:38,170 --> 00:57:35,900 what's going on but he can't tell 1365 00:57:41,950 --> 00:57:38,180 because he's constrained by the Secrets 1366 00:57:43,810 --> 00:57:41,960 Act or number two that particular office 1367 00:57:45,850 --> 00:57:43,820 that you worked in that's just the cover 1368 00:57:47,770 --> 00:57:45,860 up the really waffle investigation is 1369 00:57:49,570 --> 00:57:47,780 going on elsewhere what do you say about 1370 00:57:53,710 --> 00:57:49,580 that well you see it's almost impossible 1371 00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:53,720 for me to respond to either of those you 1372 00:57:57,310 --> 00:57:55,730 know without people people just saying 1373 00:57:59,890 --> 00:57:57,320 well he would say that wouldn't he let's 1374 00:58:02,170 --> 00:57:59,900 let's take the first one people saying 1375 00:58:05,290 --> 00:58:02,180 that I know some great truth but I'm not 1376 00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:05,300 saying I don't know the friendly face 1377 00:58:12,460 --> 00:58:09,440 I'm getting so whatever if I say to you 1378 00:58:15,670 --> 00:58:12,470 look no no that's not the case I'm 1379 00:58:18,430 --> 00:58:15,680 actually telling you how it is people 1380 00:58:20,740 --> 00:58:18,440 that believe otherwise will simply say 1381 00:58:23,290 --> 00:58:20,750 well he would say that wouldn't he so I 1382 00:58:26,170 --> 00:58:23,300 I can't really carry those people with 1383 00:58:27,220 --> 00:58:26,180 me so I might denial damned if you do 1384 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:27,230 damned if you don't 1385 00:58:32,890 --> 00:58:30,170 exactly I know on the other issue the 1386 00:58:34,930 --> 00:58:32,900 idea that that somehow the job that I 1387 00:58:36,580 --> 00:58:34,940 did was just some shop window and that 1388 00:58:39,610 --> 00:58:36,590 the really interesting stuff went on 1389 00:58:42,550 --> 00:58:39,620 elsewhere I could say but lyrics the 1390 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:42,560 Ministry of Defense is now declassifying 1391 00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:44,930 a releasing the UFO FILES this showed 1392 00:58:50,260 --> 00:58:46,720 that we were at the heart of everything 1393 00:58:53,260 --> 00:58:50,270 this showed that we had the policy lead 1394 00:58:56,110 --> 00:58:53,270 we had the invective lead the Defense 1395 00:58:59,470 --> 00:58:56,120 Intelligence staff who it's been 1396 00:59:02,500 --> 00:58:59,480 suggested with the real players here the 1397 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:02,510 papers the government files show that 1398 00:59:06,580 --> 00:59:04,490 they were actually responding to our 1399 00:59:08,170 --> 00:59:06,590 requests but you see if people believe 1400 00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:08,180 otherwise they'll simply say all that 1401 00:59:13,210 --> 00:59:11,210 documentation is faked anyway so again 1402 00:59:15,070 --> 00:59:13,220 exactly as you say damned if you do 1403 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:15,080 damned if you don't I'm not going to be 1404 00:59:19,529 --> 00:59:18,130 able to dissuade people or 1405 00:59:20,940 --> 00:59:19,539 they look at the government files 1406 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:20,950 because they'll say they're all fake 1407 00:59:26,849 --> 00:59:24,490 toward altered before we split for our 1408 00:59:28,349 --> 00:59:26,859 number two of this episode where can our 1409 00:59:31,859 --> 00:59:28,359 listeners find out more of the things 1410 00:59:34,970 --> 00:59:31,869 that you write about my own website nick 1411 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:34,980 pope dotnet the ministry of defense 1412 00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:39,250 website i think just a midi dot uk' and 1413 00:59:44,490 --> 00:59:41,710 the National Archives website just put 1414 00:59:46,650 --> 00:59:44,500 in National Archives UK everything that 1415 00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:46,660 I talk about can be backed up by the 1416 00:59:50,910 --> 00:59:48,400 government's own records I'm not one of 1417 00:59:52,950 --> 00:59:50,920 these people that that says this you 1418 00:59:55,289 --> 00:59:52,960 know I worked here and there and take my 1419 00:59:57,870 --> 00:59:55,299 word for it the files show that I did 1420 00:59:59,999 --> 00:59:57,880 Nick Pope was co-host Paul Kimball 1421 01:00:05,549 --> 01:00:00,009 coming up again on the other side of the 1422 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:05,559 power cast we want to hear from you if 1423 01:00:10,170 --> 01:00:07,210 you have a comment or question about the 1424 01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:10,180 pair cast send it to news at the pear 1425 01:00:14,370 --> 01:00:11,170 cast com 1426 01:00:16,380 --> 01:00:14,380 that's news at the pear cast calm and 1427 01:00:18,059 --> 01:00:16,390 don't forget to visit our forums where 1428 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:18,069 you can talk to fellow listeners just go 1429 01:00:23,099 --> 01:00:20,650 to the pear cast calm and click on the 1430 01:00:30,890 --> 01:00:23,109 forum links that's the forum links at 1431 01:00:39,630 --> 01:00:33,300 welcome back to the parrot house with 1432 01:00:44,340 --> 01:00:42,030 mokou hostess Paul Kimball we're 1433 01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:44,350 returning with Nick Pope who worked with 1434 01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:46,930 the Ministry of Defense and was one of 1435 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:50,650 their UFO guys for three years as you 1436 01:00:54,330 --> 01:00:52,090 get sucked into that for those who 1437 01:00:57,180 --> 01:00:54,340 haven't heard the original story how did 1438 01:00:58,920 --> 01:00:57,190 they say Nick you got to do this it was 1439 01:01:02,550 --> 01:00:58,930 quite by accident 1440 01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:02,560 I had no previous knowledge or interest 1441 01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:05,200 in this subject at all I was just a 1442 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:07,330 government guy minding my own business 1443 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:09,370 wondering what my next tour of duty 1444 01:01:16,130 --> 01:01:12,970 would be I was doing a job where I've 1445 01:01:19,470 --> 01:01:16,140 been seconded into the Joint Operations 1446 01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:19,480 Center as a briefer during the first 1447 01:01:25,650 --> 01:01:22,930 Gulf War and I happened to be working 1448 01:01:27,450 --> 01:01:25,660 for a guy down there and he said that 1449 01:01:29,490 --> 01:01:27,460 once all this was finished 1450 01:01:31,860 --> 01:01:29,500 I know you're looking for a move I have 1451 01:01:34,830 --> 01:01:31,870 a vacancy I'm quite impressed with your 1452 01:01:38,340 --> 01:01:34,840 work would you like to come away with me 1453 01:01:42,900 --> 01:01:38,350 for me and I said yeah okay what's the 1454 01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:42,910 job and UFOs and they said okay I'll do 1455 01:01:49,740 --> 01:01:44,410 it and that was it 1456 01:01:52,170 --> 01:01:49,750 so you didn't say what no I knew I I 1457 01:01:55,020 --> 01:01:52,180 knew that there was a UFO job because 1458 01:01:58,350 --> 01:01:55,030 one of the things that young employees 1459 01:02:00,870 --> 01:01:58,360 in the ministry defense used to spend a 1460 01:02:03,030 --> 01:02:00,880 lot of time doing was going through the 1461 01:02:06,450 --> 01:02:03,040 big at the time it was called the 1462 01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:06,460 Greenberg and it was basically the 1463 01:02:11,820 --> 01:02:08,650 telephone directory and it had brief job 1464 01:02:13,890 --> 01:02:11,830 descriptions of almost everyone in the 1465 01:02:17,060 --> 01:02:13,900 department and of course everyone had 1466 01:02:20,250 --> 01:02:17,070 spotted this thing that just said UFOs 1467 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:20,260 everyone look at this is him what so of 1468 01:02:23,870 --> 01:02:21,490 course I was one of those people that 1469 01:02:26,730 --> 01:02:23,880 had looked at it and said what and 1470 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:26,740 little did I know that the offer would 1471 01:02:33,210 --> 01:02:29,650 come my way a thousand to one chance if 1472 01:02:34,830 --> 01:02:33,220 not more but it it happened and yeah did 1473 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:34,840 you have any sort of pre-existing 1474 01:02:39,570 --> 01:02:37,210 interest in the UFO phenomenon before 1475 01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,580 that or not you know great knowledge of 1476 01:02:43,170 --> 01:02:41,680 it or was it just kind of oh well here's 1477 01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:43,180 another job for you that sounds 1478 01:02:49,020 --> 01:02:46,210 interesting I had no I had no I had no 1479 01:02:52,790 --> 01:02:49,030 pre-existing knowledge or interest I had 1480 01:02:55,580 --> 01:02:52,800 mixed feelings about it to be honest 1481 01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:55,590 on the one hand I guess like everyone 1482 01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:57,530 who had flicked through the mo d 1483 01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:00,000 Greenberg the telephone directory and 1484 01:03:07,100 --> 01:03:05,010 seen that job that just said UFOs I have 1485 01:03:08,990 --> 01:03:07,110 been intrigued and the head thought what 1486 01:03:11,540 --> 01:03:09,000 on earth is that if you'll excuse the 1487 01:03:15,530 --> 01:03:11,550 pun that's interesting on the other hand 1488 01:03:17,930 --> 01:03:15,540 I was young and hugely ambitious and I 1489 01:03:21,740 --> 01:03:17,940 did worry whether something like that 1490 01:03:25,580 --> 01:03:21,750 might not sit too comfortably on my CV 1491 01:03:28,970 --> 01:03:25,590 and I thought although actually if I'm 1492 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:28,980 to get on and and to be promoted to the 1493 01:03:34,970 --> 01:03:32,130 more senior levels the sorts of jobs I 1494 01:03:38,390 --> 01:03:34,980 should be doing are the jobs in the 1495 01:03:41,210 --> 01:03:38,400 defense ministers office for example you 1496 01:03:43,550 --> 01:03:41,220 know SMS effect death you know those 1497 01:03:47,780 --> 01:03:43,560 those sorts of posts where you want to 1498 01:03:50,450 --> 01:03:47,790 get st. F and you want to get in to the 1499 01:03:52,460 --> 01:03:50,460 office even at a junior level but just 1500 01:03:54,020 --> 01:03:52,470 to be there and I thought all those are 1501 01:03:59,210 --> 01:03:54,030 the sorts of jobs I should be doing not 1502 01:04:01,400 --> 01:03:59,220 not this so I had mixed feelings now you 1503 01:04:04,010 --> 01:04:01,410 had mentioned earlier in the first 1504 01:04:05,330 --> 01:04:04,020 segment the Rendlesham case and I 1505 01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:05,340 suspect you think I'm gonna ask you 1506 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:06,210 about that right now 1507 01:04:10,250 --> 01:04:07,770 but I'm not gonna save that for later 1508 01:04:11,870 --> 01:04:10,260 okay I want to ask you about right now 1509 01:04:14,810 --> 01:04:11,880 it's something that I don't think you 1510 01:04:16,790 --> 01:04:14,820 talk about very often and no it's not 1511 01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:16,800 your childhood remote-viewing 1512 01:04:22,630 --> 01:04:19,170 actually we're going to hypnotize you in 1513 01:04:26,660 --> 01:04:22,640 a search for evidence of alien hybrids 1514 01:04:28,700 --> 01:04:26,670 okay or no confess at all oh gosh I 1515 01:04:31,490 --> 01:04:28,710 confess it all I remember the last time 1516 01:04:33,290 --> 01:04:31,500 you confessed something that's gonna be 1517 01:04:38,980 --> 01:04:33,300 on the next episode ladies and gentlemen 1518 01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:38,990 the secret files of new bar in London 1519 01:04:44,540 --> 01:04:42,690 you have on your website a page that I 1520 01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:44,550 suspect maybe not a lot of people log on 1521 01:04:48,410 --> 01:04:45,930 to they probably go to Rendlesham err 1522 01:04:50,510 --> 01:04:48,420 UFOs first or whatever but you have a 1523 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:50,520 page on remote viewing and I didn't know 1524 01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:52,410 this until I was doing some research for 1525 01:04:55,700 --> 01:04:54,330 the interview here that there had 1526 01:04:59,150 --> 01:04:55,710 actually been a Ministry of Defense 1527 01:05:02,300 --> 01:04:59,160 study into remote viewing and that it 1528 01:05:04,090 --> 01:05:02,310 actually had something to do with 9/11 1529 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:04,100 or at least part of it had to do with 1530 01:05:07,859 --> 01:05:06,250 9/11 you right here the 1531 01:05:10,230 --> 01:05:07,869 PM Modi had attempted to recruit 1532 01:05:12,450 --> 01:05:10,240 psychics to track down targets which 1533 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:12,460 almost certainly included bin Laden and 1534 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:14,290 weapons of mass destruction could you 1535 01:05:19,530 --> 01:05:16,330 tell us a bit about the the mo DS remote 1536 01:05:23,580 --> 01:05:19,540 viewing program sure I'm embarrassed to 1537 01:05:27,900 --> 01:05:23,590 say that the headline finding about the 1538 01:05:31,830 --> 01:05:27,910 mo DS remote viewing project was that it 1539 01:05:33,660 --> 01:05:31,840 was totally mishandled and and again 1540 01:05:36,300 --> 01:05:33,670 don't take my word for this you can go 1541 01:05:39,930 --> 01:05:36,310 on to the mo D website Emma D dot uk' 1542 01:05:43,500 --> 01:05:39,940 put in the phrase remote viewing and you 1543 01:05:47,700 --> 01:05:43,510 will find this report that was formerly 1544 01:05:50,550 --> 01:05:47,710 classified secret UK eyes only and and 1545 01:05:52,620 --> 01:05:50,560 you'll see as you've just said that what 1546 01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:52,630 this essentially was was fairly shortly 1547 01:05:58,500 --> 01:05:55,410 after 9/11 the mo D probably not 1548 01:06:01,800 --> 01:05:58,510 coincidentally started a project to try 1549 01:06:05,250 --> 01:06:01,810 and recruit psychics parts large parts 1550 01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:05,260 of the the report are blacked out in the 1551 01:06:10,950 --> 01:06:07,450 interesting bits where they say what the 1552 01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:10,960 targets were but you know as somebody 1553 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:14,010 who's worked alongside people in 1554 01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:17,770 intelligence I can tell you this and 1555 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:21,490 this it's not a great secret the more 1556 01:06:28,410 --> 01:06:25,570 intelligence targets as a nation I do 1557 01:06:30,540 --> 01:06:28,420 not change they're fixed you may have 1558 01:06:33,410 --> 01:06:30,550 different means of going after your 1559 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:33,420 intelligence targets that may include 1560 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:36,970 human intelligence ie agents on the 1561 01:06:40,740 --> 01:06:37,450 ground 1562 01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:40,750 it may include interception of 1563 01:06:46,490 --> 01:06:42,130 communications 1564 01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:46,500 it may include satellite surveillance 1565 01:06:52,170 --> 01:06:50,050 but your intelligence targets don't 1566 01:06:55,109 --> 01:06:52,180 change all you've actually got is 1567 01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:55,119 different means of trying to access 1568 01:07:01,440 --> 01:06:57,790 those targets so in a sense 1569 01:07:05,010 --> 01:07:01,450 remote viewing is nothing more or less 1570 01:07:06,990 --> 01:07:05,020 unusual or sinister than just another 1571 01:07:09,450 --> 01:07:07,000 means of going after your intelligence 1572 01:07:12,349 --> 01:07:09,460 target your targets don't change your 1573 01:07:16,079 --> 01:07:12,359 targets are always going to be spies 1574 01:07:18,270 --> 01:07:16,089 terrorists weapons drugs that sort of 1575 01:07:19,859 --> 01:07:18,280 thing so motive Ewing was just another 1576 01:07:22,650 --> 01:07:19,869 way of going after it 1577 01:07:24,180 --> 01:07:22,660 well yes to to a degree but I would 1578 01:07:26,759 --> 01:07:24,190 think that most people if you were to 1579 01:07:28,470 --> 01:07:26,769 poll 10 people on the streets in front 1580 01:07:29,579 --> 01:07:28,480 of Trafalgar Square or here in Halifax 1581 01:07:31,890 --> 01:07:29,589 and said hmm 1582 01:07:34,230 --> 01:07:31,900 which do you think is more likely that 1583 01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:34,240 we're using human spies or traditional 1584 01:07:37,470 --> 01:07:35,890 intelligence gathering methods that we 1585 01:07:39,450 --> 01:07:37,480 would all know of from movies and stuff 1586 01:07:42,089 --> 01:07:39,460 to go after Osama bin Laden or these 1587 01:07:44,099 --> 01:07:42,099 these Intel targets or we've got a bunch 1588 01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:44,109 of psychics do you think the 1589 01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:46,480 government's involved in that I think 10 1590 01:07:49,499 --> 01:07:48,160 out of 10 of those people would probably 1591 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:49,509 go psychics 1592 01:07:54,749 --> 01:07:52,210 no wonder we haven't found we're using 1593 01:07:56,489 --> 01:07:54,759 psychics to find him but does the fact 1594 01:07:58,230 --> 01:07:56,499 that the Ministry of Defence as the 1595 01:07:59,970 --> 01:07:58,240 American government did as I as the 1596 01:08:01,589 --> 01:07:59,980 Soviet government did as I suspect a lot 1597 01:08:03,870 --> 01:08:01,599 of governments did and maybe still do 1598 01:08:05,989 --> 01:08:03,880 try and employ remote viewers and 1599 01:08:08,039 --> 01:08:05,999 psychics in an intelligence capacity 1600 01:08:10,289 --> 01:08:08,049 indicate that there might actually be 1601 01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:10,299 something to remote viewing what do you 1602 01:08:14,700 --> 01:08:11,890 what do you think of remote viewing just 1603 01:08:17,579 --> 01:08:14,710 as a subject Nick okay two points on 1604 01:08:21,140 --> 01:08:17,589 this first point there are some 1605 01:08:25,789 --> 01:08:21,150 countries because of historical legacy 1606 01:08:28,019 --> 01:08:25,799 because of color language ethnicity 1607 01:08:30,899 --> 01:08:28,029 whatever where it is incredibly 1608 01:08:33,780 --> 01:08:30,909 difficult for example to insert an agent 1609 01:08:37,620 --> 01:08:33,790 I mean you may try and turn someone 1610 01:08:39,539 --> 01:08:37,630 who's already a citizen but it's very 1611 01:08:43,169 --> 01:08:39,549 difficult for example to get it an 1612 01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:43,179 illegal in and that's as much as I'm 1613 01:08:48,809 --> 01:08:47,290 gonna say about that the point about 1614 01:08:50,340 --> 01:08:48,819 what do we think about remote viewing 1615 01:08:52,709 --> 01:08:50,350 what do we think about saying explain 1616 01:08:56,490 --> 01:08:52,719 does it work whatever the way I would 1617 01:09:01,399 --> 01:08:56,500 characterize it is this this is what we 1618 01:09:04,860 --> 01:09:01,409 called a classic low probability high 1619 01:09:06,959 --> 01:09:04,870 consequence situation now they probably 1620 01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:06,969 see a high consequence or as it's 1621 01:09:12,990 --> 01:09:09,730 sometimes termed no probability high 1622 01:09:17,610 --> 01:09:13,000 impact is a term that originated in 1623 01:09:20,249 --> 01:09:17,620 business but it's been incorporated into 1624 01:09:22,499 --> 01:09:20,259 the intelligence community and as it 1625 01:09:24,749 --> 01:09:22,509 says on the tin what it's really saying 1626 01:09:27,950 --> 01:09:24,759 is look even if you think the 1627 01:09:32,189 --> 01:09:27,960 vanishingly small chance of this working 1628 01:09:33,210 --> 01:09:32,199 if it does the consequences the the 1629 01:09:35,370 --> 01:09:33,220 benefit 1630 01:09:39,090 --> 01:09:35,380 that we would reap if we could get this 1631 01:09:42,510 --> 01:09:39,100 to work would be immense so that's why 1632 01:09:45,390 --> 01:09:42,520 you know the had a a remote viewing 1633 01:09:48,150 --> 01:09:45,400 program it wasn't because corporately 1634 01:09:50,610 --> 01:09:48,160 we'd all bought into this idea we'd all 1635 01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:50,620 signed up to the idea that that psychics 1636 01:09:54,690 --> 01:09:53,290 could find these things it was just like 1637 01:09:56,730 --> 01:09:54,700 if there's a one in a thousand chance 1638 01:10:00,480 --> 01:09:56,740 that they can let's take that gamble 1639 01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:00,490 because if they can great okay is there 1640 01:10:04,440 --> 01:10:03,010 a one in a thousand chance of any of 1641 01:10:11,670 --> 01:10:04,450 this really work 1642 01:10:14,100 --> 01:10:11,680 one have you heard I don't know but 1643 01:10:16,230 --> 01:10:14,110 leaving aside the Ministry of Defense is 1644 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:16,240 and you can actually focus you can go to 1645 01:10:20,580 --> 01:10:18,970 Nick's website Nick Pope net and Nick 1646 01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:20,590 might not check this page very often but 1647 01:10:24,420 --> 01:10:22,000 there's a direct link on his remote 1648 01:10:26,010 --> 01:10:24,430 viewing page he has a remote engage you 1649 01:10:29,610 --> 01:10:26,020 can take the direct link right there to 1650 01:10:32,340 --> 01:10:29,620 the mot study yes and this is yeah 1651 01:10:34,050 --> 01:10:32,350 absolutely this is not me you can go 1652 01:10:36,270 --> 01:10:34,060 onto my website and you can see me 1653 01:10:37,830 --> 01:10:36,280 pontificating about it but then you can 1654 01:10:40,860 --> 01:10:37,840 say no don't listen to that idiot just 1655 01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:40,870 see what the MRD study says you can get 1656 01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:42,010 right to the real thing 1657 01:10:45,450 --> 01:10:43,690 I think actually at the end of your 1658 01:10:48,930 --> 01:10:45,460 entire page and your pontificating you 1659 01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:48,940 say now don't listen to me actually the 1660 01:10:53,270 --> 01:10:50,650 psychic spies are on your trail is the 1661 01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:53,280 last thing that your rights oh yes I did 1662 01:10:59,550 --> 01:10:57,070 and this is an article I wrote I wrote 1663 01:11:01,440 --> 01:10:59,560 for one of our national newspapers and I 1664 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:01,450 think I ended it by saying something 1665 01:11:07,850 --> 01:11:04,330 provocative by saying so if you were one 1666 01:11:11,430 --> 01:11:07,860 of the bad guys against your expectation 1667 01:11:15,900 --> 01:11:11,440 against your every belief we're coming 1668 01:11:17,550 --> 01:11:15,910 to get you it does sound and I mean this 1669 01:11:19,950 --> 01:11:17,560 is the highest compliment it does sound 1670 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:19,960 very Nick Redfern ish because he's sort 1671 01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:21,250 of you guys sometimes write in the same 1672 01:11:24,390 --> 01:11:22,480 way but you're right but maybe the 1673 01:11:26,730 --> 01:11:24,400 strangest x-file in the mo DS history as 1674 01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:26,740 a final message for the bad guys beyond 1675 01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:28,210 your understanding and against all odds 1676 01:11:32,310 --> 01:11:30,010 we're coming to get you 1677 01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:32,320 the psychic spies are on your trail that 1678 01:11:39,870 --> 01:11:34,290 was for The Daily Express and anybody 1679 01:11:42,060 --> 01:11:39,880 where indeed my word good today I wrote 1680 01:11:44,070 --> 01:11:42,070 that I think about three years ago and 1681 01:11:44,540 --> 01:11:44,080 only on the power cast do you find your 1682 01:11:47,330 --> 01:11:44,550 word 1683 01:11:51,950 --> 01:11:47,340 thrown back at you we own the Parrikar 1684 01:11:54,740 --> 01:11:51,960 do I say gosh I'm good I mean that's 1685 01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:54,750 fine you know welcome to say that we're 1686 01:12:05,350 --> 01:11:56,970 good great or otherwise 1687 01:12:07,870 --> 01:12:05,360 [Music] 1688 01:12:10,630 --> 01:12:07,880 hey neighbors would you like to see the 1689 01:12:12,340 --> 01:12:10,640 power cast live long and prosper well if 1690 01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:12,350 you know of anyone who wants to 1691 01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:14,690 advertise their products or services on 1692 01:12:19,510 --> 01:12:16,850 the power cast have them contact us 1693 01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:19,520 directly tell them to write to sales at 1694 01:12:24,490 --> 01:12:21,290 the power cast com 1695 01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:24,500 that's sales at the Parra cast come and 1696 01:12:29,890 --> 01:12:27,530 we also accept your donations by paypal 1697 01:12:33,460 --> 01:12:29,900 send your PayPal donation to the same 1698 01:12:36,430 --> 01:12:33,470 address sales at Lapera cast calm at 1699 01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:36,440 sales at the power cast calm and thanks 1700 01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:40,970 for listening this is Leslie Cain and 1701 01:12:44,950 --> 01:12:42,770 I'm with the Coalition for freedom of 1702 01:12:48,820 --> 01:12:44,960 information and you are listening to the 1703 01:12:50,860 --> 01:12:48,830 podcast we have Nick Pope who says - I'm 1704 01:12:53,290 --> 01:12:50,870 good and we have Paul Kimball who says 1705 01:12:55,150 --> 01:12:53,300 gosh I'm better and we have Jim 1706 01:12:56,710 --> 01:12:55,160 Steinberg who's old as the hills 1707 01:12:58,300 --> 01:12:56,720 Farren and they were alive with the 1708 01:13:00,730 --> 01:12:58,310 sound of music they told me a long time 1709 01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:00,740 ago I think Brad Steiger said that I was 1710 01:13:06,250 --> 01:13:04,400 here before the dinosaurs okay I don't 1711 01:13:08,170 --> 01:13:06,260 want to get into that but let's go back 1712 01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:08,180 to Rendlesham forest let's take a 1713 01:13:13,660 --> 01:13:11,810 journey into Rendlesham forest what can 1714 01:13:14,590 --> 01:13:13,670 we learn that maybe we haven't heard too 1715 01:13:18,340 --> 01:13:14,600 much about Nick 1716 01:13:20,590 --> 01:13:18,350 well I'm loathe to spend five or ten 1717 01:13:25,090 --> 01:13:20,600 minutes giving an overview of this case 1718 01:13:27,430 --> 01:13:25,100 because I suspect that you and all the 1719 01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:27,440 paragraphs people will be familiar with 1720 01:13:32,430 --> 01:13:29,810 this okay let me get ahead of that we 1721 01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:32,440 can go back to that if you want but 1722 01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:35,090 what's happened literally in the last 1723 01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:37,850 few days which is quite interesting is 1724 01:13:45,250 --> 01:13:41,330 on Facebook I think John Burroughs one 1725 01:13:48,930 --> 01:13:45,260 of the key witnesses to this had started 1726 01:13:53,230 --> 01:13:48,940 a group called justice for the 81st 1727 01:13:55,510 --> 01:13:53,240 security police squadron Bentwaters sand 1728 01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:55,520 yeah and he's getting a lot of the 1729 01:14:00,940 --> 01:13:57,920 people a lot of these people John 1730 01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:00,950 burrows Jim Penniston people of klum 1731 01:14:07,950 --> 01:14:04,610 where he won all these people are now 1732 01:14:10,420 --> 01:14:07,960 coming together via Facebook and 1733 01:14:12,790 --> 01:14:10,430 probably in other places and they're 1734 01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:12,800 saying right look this is the 30th 1735 01:14:18,879 --> 01:14:16,970 anniversary of this case we feel we were 1736 01:14:21,310 --> 01:14:18,889 let down by the chain of command 1737 01:14:23,530 --> 01:14:21,320 both in terms of this being something 1738 01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:23,540 above and beyond our experience and in 1739 01:14:30,580 --> 01:14:26,690 terms of some of the allegations of what 1740 01:14:32,290 --> 01:14:30,590 went on afterwards threats drugs that 1741 01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:32,300 sort of thing and these people are 1742 01:14:37,450 --> 01:14:35,090 lobbying fairly aggressively and it's 1743 01:14:39,910 --> 01:14:37,460 interesting through social networking 1744 01:14:43,629 --> 01:14:39,920 sites like Facebook that we are getting 1745 01:14:45,370 --> 01:14:43,639 this kind of activism now not from the 1746 01:14:47,020 --> 01:14:45,380 UFO community but from those who were 1747 01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:47,030 directly involved those who were there 1748 01:14:55,570 --> 01:14:51,530 and I I saw I think on Jim peniston's 1749 01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:55,580 Facebook page him saying right all you 1750 01:14:59,590 --> 01:14:57,530 people who are probably looking at this 1751 01:15:02,140 --> 01:14:59,600 but haven't yet got in touch who were 1752 01:15:04,629 --> 01:15:02,150 there then what is in woodbridge I I 1753 01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:04,639 want to talk to you guys yeah it's 1754 01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:06,290 fascinating I'm actually looking at it 1755 01:15:09,729 --> 01:15:06,770 right now 1756 01:15:11,620 --> 01:15:09,739 it's the justice for the Bentwaters 81st 1757 01:15:15,700 --> 01:15:11,630 security police and Rendell's from force 1758 01:15:19,510 --> 01:15:15,710 1980 Facebook page and I've just joined 1759 01:15:21,970 --> 01:15:19,520 I assume Nick perhaps you've joined yeah 1760 01:15:24,580 --> 01:15:21,980 if you go to my facebook page or Nick's 1761 01:15:25,689 --> 01:15:24,590 Facebook page you can you can you'll be 1762 01:15:28,330 --> 01:15:25,699 able to find the link and just go to 1763 01:15:30,939 --> 01:15:28,340 Facebook and join in it has and 1764 01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:30,949 Burroughs was the creator they have 1062 1765 01:15:36,490 --> 01:15:32,960 members already many of whom I assume 1766 01:15:37,899 --> 01:15:36,500 our UFO buffs and such but also probably 1767 01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:37,909 some people are going to come forward 1768 01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:40,489 out of this who maybe haven't been heard 1769 01:15:51,250 --> 01:15:48,530 from before ya know just to chip in I 1770 01:15:53,050 --> 01:15:51,260 think that's absolutely right the most 1771 01:15:54,970 --> 01:15:53,060 important people who've joined that 1772 01:15:58,780 --> 01:15:54,980 group are probably people whose names we 1773 01:16:00,970 --> 01:15:58,790 don't yet know who were there yeah and 1774 01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:00,980 it's it's amazing to sort of like we 1775 01:16:04,330 --> 01:16:02,690 were talking about UFO research in the 1776 01:16:06,250 --> 01:16:04,340 first segment and boots on the ground 1777 01:16:08,109 --> 01:16:06,260 and mud in the field and all that sort 1778 01:16:11,709 --> 01:16:08,119 of stuff maybe all you really need is a 1779 01:16:13,990 --> 01:16:11,719 computer keyboard and Facebook you can 1780 01:16:16,330 --> 01:16:14,000 start an account and link into people 1781 01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:16,340 that way it gets us a bit off of 1782 01:16:22,390 --> 01:16:19,010 Rendlesham but the social net fascinates 1783 01:16:24,580 --> 01:16:22,400 me the social networking aspect of how 1784 01:16:26,950 --> 01:16:24,590 we all interact with people even within 1785 01:16:28,899 --> 01:16:26,960 the UFO research community I remember 1786 01:16:30,110 --> 01:16:28,909 Nick your Facebook page I think about a 1787 01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:30,120 year or a year and a half ago 1788 01:16:36,770 --> 01:16:32,130 making fun of you because you I didn't 1789 01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:36,780 have way friends but I was gonna say 1790 01:16:43,150 --> 01:16:40,890 well I'm going to defriend you and yeah 1791 01:16:45,770 --> 01:16:43,160 I've had one a few girls have done that 1792 01:16:48,740 --> 01:16:45,780 the ultimate insult to be defended on 1793 01:16:51,470 --> 01:16:48,750 Facebook ouch what but now you've got 1794 01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:51,480 thousands I think as friends well I 1795 01:16:59,390 --> 01:16:57,210 think I've got about 3,500 but I'm gonna 1796 01:17:02,690 --> 01:16:59,400 I guess hit this issue a lot of people 1797 01:17:04,810 --> 01:17:02,700 are gonna hit that apparently Facebook 1798 01:17:07,580 --> 01:17:04,820 doesn't let you have more than 5,000 and 1799 01:17:10,790 --> 01:17:07,590 I know that whitley strieber had add 1800 01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:10,800 this because i think he hit that the 1801 01:17:16,300 --> 01:17:13,830 other day I guess I'm gonna have to open 1802 01:17:19,700 --> 01:17:16,310 the second account I'm gonna have to 1803 01:17:22,610 --> 01:17:19,710 convert my existing account to a fan 1804 01:17:23,900 --> 01:17:22,620 site as opposed to a friend site which I 1805 01:17:26,440 --> 01:17:23,910 always think that sounds a little bit 1806 01:17:34,690 --> 01:17:26,450 sniffy it's like Thank You Know Who I am 1807 01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:36,080 friends right now 1808 01:17:45,050 --> 01:17:39,120 and most of them are about to cut me off 1809 01:17:48,830 --> 01:17:45,060 so doesn't matter you know I hear 59 1810 01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:48,840 fans which is why Facebook has changed 1811 01:17:53,150 --> 01:17:51,090 it from a fan site to I think now it 1812 01:17:55,220 --> 01:17:53,160 just says you like this as opposed to 1813 01:17:56,930 --> 01:17:55,230 being a fan of because people are I 1814 01:17:58,130 --> 01:17:56,940 didn't want people to be fans I just 1815 01:17:59,540 --> 01:17:58,140 wanted to give them a place where they 1816 01:18:01,400 --> 01:17:59,550 could read some of the stuff that I'd 1817 01:18:02,690 --> 01:18:01,410 published about UFOs or whatever so I'm 1818 01:18:04,850 --> 01:18:02,700 surprised you don't have one maybe I 1819 01:18:07,790 --> 01:18:04,860 should start one for you I will start 1820 01:18:09,350 --> 01:18:07,800 the Nick Pope fan site on Facebook and 1821 01:18:10,910 --> 01:18:09,360 I'll have all sorts of people who want 1822 01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:10,920 to connect with me connect into 1823 01:18:14,090 --> 01:18:12,330 something with which I'm not involved 1824 01:18:16,460 --> 01:18:14,100 and you know this is where it does get 1825 01:18:20,390 --> 01:18:16,470 confusing this is where I cattle 1826 01:18:21,650 --> 01:18:20,400 maniacally but going back to random 1827 01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:21,660 stuff anyway thank you for bringing that 1828 01:18:25,670 --> 01:18:23,520 up though I actually hadn't noticed that 1829 01:18:27,620 --> 01:18:25,680 I think somebody had send me an invite 1830 01:18:29,150 --> 01:18:27,630 to that particular group and I got 20 1831 01:18:31,100 --> 01:18:29,160 invites in a day and I usually just say 1832 01:18:33,770 --> 01:18:31,110 ignore ignore ignore but I've gone back 1833 01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:33,780 and joined up tremendous resource so 1834 01:18:38,210 --> 01:18:35,280 look it up folks through either my 1835 01:18:39,380 --> 01:18:38,220 facebook page or next or whoever but go 1836 01:18:43,030 --> 01:18:39,390 back to the renders from case that's 1837 01:18:44,650 --> 01:18:43,040 sort of breaking news as we say is there 1838 01:18:47,470 --> 01:18:44,660 you think there's the anniversary is 1839 01:18:50,890 --> 01:18:47,480 coming up correct this year isn't it yes 1840 01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:50,900 we're in the anniversary obviously the 1841 01:18:55,990 --> 01:18:53,330 anniversary itself falls in December but 1842 01:18:59,620 --> 01:18:56,000 but we are in the 30th anniversary year 1843 01:19:01,570 --> 01:18:59,630 so we've got the Facebook group that 1844 01:19:03,850 --> 01:19:01,580 we've talked about we've got John book 1845 01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:03,860 John Burroughs may be trying to organize 1846 01:19:09,100 --> 01:19:07,850 a physical get-together where some of 1847 01:19:11,250 --> 01:19:09,110 the people who are involved in this 1848 01:19:14,470 --> 01:19:11,260 literary sit around the table and 1849 01:19:17,260 --> 01:19:14,480 brainstorm things we've got researchers 1850 01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:17,270 like Linda Moulton Howe doing some very 1851 01:19:22,330 --> 01:19:20,210 good work finding some of the people 1852 01:19:25,420 --> 01:19:22,340 whose names perhaps a little bit less 1853 01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:25,430 known in this some of the people on the 1854 01:19:30,790 --> 01:19:27,770 flight as opposed e-flite and they have 1855 01:19:33,310 --> 01:19:30,800 it vice versa but you know a lot of 1856 01:19:36,580 --> 01:19:33,320 people looking at this some TV 1857 01:19:39,190 --> 01:19:36,590 production companies obviously looking 1858 01:19:40,570 --> 01:19:39,200 and thinking well maybe there's an 1859 01:19:44,110 --> 01:19:40,580 opportunity for an interesting 1860 01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:44,120 documentary here it's been done before 1861 01:19:49,420 --> 01:19:46,010 obviously on History Channel and sci-fi 1862 01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:49,430 channel on Discovery I think but this 1863 01:19:54,670 --> 01:19:52,690 room I'm sure for an anniversary 1864 01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:54,680 documentary particularly if we could get 1865 01:20:01,060 --> 01:19:57,530 some of the people together the one note 1866 01:20:02,770 --> 01:20:01,070 of caution that I would sound and this 1867 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:02,780 is a conversation that maybe I would 1868 01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:07,010 have with people like Jim Penniston John 1869 01:20:12,250 --> 01:20:09,410 burrows Larry Wan when people like that 1870 01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:12,260 say that they were let down by the chain 1871 01:20:17,440 --> 01:20:14,570 of command I do understand what they're 1872 01:20:20,710 --> 01:20:17,450 saying that there is a danger of 1873 01:20:24,390 --> 01:20:20,720 thinking creating what I would call them 1874 01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:24,400 and ass situation we did this incident 1875 01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:27,920 where perhaps people like Charles hold 1876 01:20:34,540 --> 01:20:30,370 and maybe some of the other officers 1877 01:20:38,650 --> 01:20:34,550 feel a little bit disincentivized 1878 01:20:41,220 --> 01:20:38,660 with regard to engaging on this if they 1879 01:20:44,260 --> 01:20:41,230 feel that they are being demonized or 1880 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:44,270 portrayed as the bad guys now it may be 1881 01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:46,370 that there are some bad guys in all of 1882 01:20:50,650 --> 01:20:49,010 this but I don't actually think it was 1883 01:20:52,630 --> 01:20:50,660 any of the people on the ground at the 1884 01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:52,640 time but I think there is this danger 1885 01:20:55,820 --> 01:20:54,000 and I 1886 01:20:58,010 --> 01:20:55,830 in the military there is always this 1887 01:21:01,660 --> 01:20:58,020 difference between the officers and the 1888 01:21:05,090 --> 01:21:01,670 other ranks what I don't want to see is 1889 01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:05,100 arguably our best opportunity of making 1890 01:21:10,610 --> 01:21:08,010 real progress on this case going up in 1891 01:21:12,980 --> 01:21:10,620 smoke because there is a sort of schism 1892 01:21:14,270 --> 01:21:12,990 between officers and other ranks so I 1893 01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:14,280 think there has to be a little bit of 1894 01:21:18,590 --> 01:21:15,930 give and take here I would agree with 1895 01:21:21,620 --> 01:21:18,600 that you mentioned to people who have 1896 01:21:23,450 --> 01:21:21,630 often been at odds not necessarily 1897 01:21:25,330 --> 01:21:23,460 directly in the same room kind of thing 1898 01:21:28,130 --> 01:21:25,340 but Larry Warren on the one hand and 1899 01:21:30,950 --> 01:21:28,140 Charles halts on the other hand now I've 1900 01:21:32,750 --> 01:21:30,960 interviewed both men I've spent some 1901 01:21:35,060 --> 01:21:32,760 time with Larry at a couple of UFO 1902 01:21:37,190 --> 01:21:35,070 conferences it's a very engaging sort of 1903 01:21:38,510 --> 01:21:37,200 out there guy which is kind of as an 1904 01:21:41,210 --> 01:21:38,520 energy that's the best way to put it 1905 01:21:43,460 --> 01:21:41,220 he's fun and halt of course is a totally 1906 01:21:46,550 --> 01:21:43,470 different cat sort of retired colonel 1907 01:21:48,890 --> 01:21:46,560 who's very proper and you know when you 1908 01:21:50,420 --> 01:21:48,900 talk to the two of them it's two totally 1909 01:21:51,830 --> 01:21:50,430 different interviews and it goes back to 1910 01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:51,840 that Roswell thing I was talking about 1911 01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:53,970 her witnesses where there are clear 1912 01:21:58,100 --> 01:21:56,370 differences in the stories that warren 1913 01:22:01,490 --> 01:21:58,110 tells and in the story that hall tells 1914 01:22:03,170 --> 01:22:01,500 but it seemed to me trying to reconcile 1915 01:22:04,940 --> 01:22:03,180 the two and trying to reconcile a lot of 1916 01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:04,950 the other stories around Rendlesham that 1917 01:22:08,870 --> 01:22:07,050 there was a core where they could 1918 01:22:10,910 --> 01:22:08,880 probably all agree on certain events 1919 01:22:13,550 --> 01:22:10,920 happening that evening 1920 01:22:16,220 --> 01:22:13,560 what are the core events at Rendlesham 1921 01:22:17,900 --> 01:22:16,230 Nick that you think and this is a bit of 1922 01:22:20,270 --> 01:22:17,910 a recap maybe for some folks but let's 1923 01:22:21,980 --> 01:22:20,280 try and distill it to the three or four 1924 01:22:24,350 --> 01:22:21,990 things almost everybody can agree on 1925 01:22:26,180 --> 01:22:24,360 happen that night that make it one of 1926 01:22:28,580 --> 01:22:26,190 the best UFO cases of ever what's the 1927 01:22:31,010 --> 01:22:28,590 core of the Rendlesham case well okay I 1928 01:22:33,770 --> 01:22:31,020 will address that but before I do I 1929 01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:33,780 guess and I'm probably quoting your 1930 01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:36,810 president but I think that the 1931 01:22:40,820 --> 01:22:38,880 Rendlesham the Bentwaters witnesses 1932 01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:40,830 might want to focus on the fact that 1933 01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:42,480 there's far more that binds them 1934 01:22:47,480 --> 01:22:45,570 together than sets them apart and I just 1935 01:22:52,250 --> 01:22:47,490 have to say I have to stop you there you 1936 01:22:54,230 --> 01:22:52,260 say my president I'm you imperialists 1937 01:22:56,570 --> 01:22:54,240 from the mother country that's this is 1938 01:22:57,920 --> 01:22:56,580 why we left the Empire games president 1939 01:22:59,750 --> 01:22:57,930 there you go fair enough 1940 01:23:02,360 --> 01:22:59,760 all right we're back at the Empire jeans 1941 01:23:04,580 --> 01:23:02,370 president but you know if you buy into 1942 01:23:07,070 --> 01:23:04,590 some of these conspiracy theories about 1943 01:23:10,890 --> 01:23:07,080 the North American Union who know 1944 01:23:14,690 --> 01:23:10,900 that's right taking over yeah that's a 1945 01:23:18,210 --> 01:23:14,700 whole nother show yes true enough they 1946 01:23:20,730 --> 01:23:18,220 agree on what binds them together okay I 1947 01:23:23,970 --> 01:23:20,740 think what binds them together is this 1948 01:23:29,150 --> 01:23:23,980 just about everyone agrees that in the 1949 01:23:32,430 --> 01:23:29,160 early hours of the 21st of December 1980 1950 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:32,440 unusual lights were seen in the forest 1951 01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:35,970 and some of the military personnel 1952 01:23:41,430 --> 01:23:38,530 thinking that maybe an aircraft had 1953 01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:41,440 crashed went out to investigate I don't 1954 01:23:45,660 --> 01:23:43,450 think that's disputed even the 1955 01:23:48,870 --> 01:23:45,670 lighthouse Brigade would probably 1956 01:23:51,420 --> 01:23:48,880 concede that the second thing that I 1957 01:23:53,790 --> 01:23:51,430 don't think is disputed is is that 1958 01:23:56,820 --> 01:23:53,800 obviously because this testimony is in 1959 01:24:00,810 --> 01:23:56,830 the public domain John Burroughs and and 1960 01:24:03,870 --> 01:24:00,820 Jim Penniston have said yeah look we saw 1961 01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:03,880 something and we approached it and Jim 1962 01:24:10,710 --> 01:24:06,730 says he got closer to John GM obviously 1963 01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:10,720 has sketches of the craft itself and 1964 01:24:17,700 --> 01:24:14,170 symbols on the side which somewhat akin 1965 01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:17,710 to Egyptian hieroglyphs John was maybe a 1966 01:24:21,890 --> 01:24:19,090 little bit further back doesn't 1967 01:24:25,650 --> 01:24:21,900 necessarily remember it the same way as 1968 01:24:28,350 --> 01:24:25,660 Jim obviously that's I think there's 1969 01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:28,360 some commonality there one of the other 1970 01:24:33,540 --> 01:24:30,730 things that's not disputed is that two 1971 01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:33,550 nights later Charles Hall was at a 1972 01:24:37,170 --> 01:24:36,370 social function somebody came up to him 1973 01:24:39,870 --> 01:24:37,180 and said sir 1974 01:24:42,540 --> 01:24:39,880 it's Bank Hall said what what are you 1975 01:24:44,910 --> 01:24:42,550 talking about what's back he was told 1976 01:24:48,390 --> 01:24:44,920 the UFO is back he threw together a 1977 01:24:50,460 --> 01:24:48,400 small team of people he went out into 1978 01:24:53,430 --> 01:24:50,470 the forest again I don't think even the 1979 01:24:57,140 --> 01:24:53,440 skeptics dispute this Charles Hall went 1980 01:25:00,570 --> 01:24:57,150 out into the forest he took with him a 1981 01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:00,580 handheld dictaphone to record his 1982 01:25:05,190 --> 01:25:02,650 thoughts and observations as he went out 1983 01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:05,200 we've all heard the whole tape I'm sure 1984 01:25:12,870 --> 01:25:11,290 he took out my tools powerful generators 1985 01:25:15,570 --> 01:25:12,880 on the back of trucks 1986 01:25:18,300 --> 01:25:15,580 designed to illuminate the forest to see 1987 01:25:20,170 --> 01:25:18,310 if he could literally and metaphorically 1988 01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:20,180 shed light on on 1989 01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:23,930 this none of that is disputed channel 1990 01:25:30,730 --> 01:25:26,930 halts tape if you listen to it describes 1991 01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:30,740 the UFO firing beams of light down at 1992 01:25:35,740 --> 01:25:32,800 the Woodbridge face again I don't 1993 01:25:38,980 --> 01:25:35,750 suspect you have to be a believer or a 1994 01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:38,990 skeptic to accept the bads real that 1995 01:25:44,170 --> 01:25:41,330 that tape is genuine that's what he 1996 01:25:47,980 --> 01:25:44,180 recorded that's what he genuinely 1997 01:25:52,300 --> 01:25:47,990 thought was happening so it wasn't all a 1998 01:25:55,480 --> 01:25:52,310 lighthouse no no I mean child you know 1999 01:25:57,490 --> 01:25:55,490 these people aren't stupid many of them 2000 01:25:59,740 --> 01:25:57,500 had been posted there for months if not 2001 01:26:02,160 --> 01:25:59,750 years they were familiar with the area 2002 01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:02,170 they've seen the lighthouse before 2003 01:26:10,330 --> 01:26:05,810 indeed Charles Hall on one occasion said 2004 01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:10,340 he even took a bearing on the UFO he was 2005 01:26:14,290 --> 01:26:13,040 seeing by the lighthouse he said well 2006 01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:14,300 there I was looking at the lighthouse 2007 01:26:20,530 --> 01:26:17,570 there the UFO was there therefore these 2008 01:26:22,870 --> 01:26:20,540 were X degrees apart in terms of 2009 01:26:24,670 --> 01:26:22,880 separation yeah one of the interesting 2010 01:26:26,950 --> 01:26:24,680 things I find about and I've written 2011 01:26:29,260 --> 01:26:26,960 about military witnesses and police 2012 01:26:32,830 --> 01:26:29,270 witnesses before and how I sometimes I 2013 01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:32,840 do think that UFO researchers sometimes 2014 01:26:38,350 --> 01:26:36,410 overstate the quality of them as opposed 2015 01:26:39,670 --> 01:26:38,360 to just a general witness I think 2016 01:26:41,620 --> 01:26:39,680 certain types of military and police 2017 01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:41,630 witnesses would be because of their 2018 01:26:44,890 --> 01:26:43,130 training better but you know your 2019 01:26:46,690 --> 01:26:44,900 average soldier I'm not convinced 2020 01:26:48,900 --> 01:26:46,700 necessarily we're dealing with something 2021 01:26:51,010 --> 01:26:48,910 anomalous it's going to be any 2022 01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:51,020 qualitatively better than your average 2023 01:26:54,970 --> 01:26:53,210 civilian witness however having said 2024 01:26:58,120 --> 01:26:54,980 that when you have a deputy base 2025 01:26:59,500 --> 01:26:58,130 commander of a major installation the 2026 01:27:00,940 --> 01:26:59,510 United Kingdom run by the Americans 2027 01:27:03,850 --> 01:27:00,950 where there may or may not have been 2028 01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:03,860 nuclear weapons but certainly in a very 2029 01:27:07,660 --> 01:27:05,930 important base and a bunch of other 2030 01:27:09,670 --> 01:27:07,670 people around him including security 2031 01:27:11,890 --> 01:27:09,680 police who are who are seeing this and 2032 01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:11,900 reporting this and recording it too 2033 01:27:16,090 --> 01:27:13,730 which to me I would say well that's very 2034 01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:16,100 good procedure that's smart it shows you 2035 01:27:20,050 --> 01:27:18,050 know this wasn't some drunken stumble in 2036 01:27:22,060 --> 01:27:20,060 the woods they were they had enough sort 2037 01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:22,070 of intelligence to to record it this 2038 01:27:24,910 --> 01:27:24,050 thing went along it's very it's very 2039 01:27:26,410 --> 01:27:24,920 hard to believe 2040 01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:26,420 these allegations you know that it was a 2041 01:27:29,130 --> 01:27:28,130 lighthouse that all of these people 2042 01:27:31,110 --> 01:27:29,140 somehow mistook 2043 01:27:33,480 --> 01:27:31,120 lighthouse there was what a couple of 2044 01:27:35,370 --> 01:27:33,490 miles off on the shore there the 2045 01:27:36,930 --> 01:27:35,380 interesting thing for me and sorry to 2046 01:27:38,010 --> 01:27:36,940 Nader on here for a bit but when I 2047 01:27:40,380 --> 01:27:38,020 interviewed halt 2048 01:27:43,770 --> 01:27:40,390 he was very cagey and when we were on 2049 01:27:45,300 --> 01:27:43,780 camera he came across obviously much 2050 01:27:47,250 --> 01:27:45,310 like you I suppose with the Official 2051 01:27:48,420 --> 01:27:47,260 Secrets Act or whatever there were 2052 01:27:49,710 --> 01:27:48,430 things that he would say and there were 2053 01:27:52,410 --> 01:27:49,720 obviously things that he wouldn't say 2054 01:27:53,970 --> 01:27:52,420 when we turned the camera off there were 2055 01:27:55,620 --> 01:27:53,980 more things that he would say and 2056 01:27:57,630 --> 01:27:55,630 eventually we got him to say some of 2057 01:27:59,850 --> 01:27:57,640 them on camera and the thing that's the 2058 01:28:01,650 --> 01:27:59,860 thing that struck me the most yeah I you 2059 01:28:02,940 --> 01:28:01,660 know I talk a lot but eventually you can 2060 01:28:04,530 --> 01:28:02,950 you make people comfortable when you're 2061 01:28:06,510 --> 01:28:04,540 an interviewer and then they will agree 2062 01:28:08,340 --> 01:28:06,520 to say perhaps more than they would have 2063 01:28:10,470 --> 01:28:08,350 the one thing that struck me the most it 2064 01:28:13,170 --> 01:28:10,480 didn't make it into my film but was the 2065 01:28:15,300 --> 01:28:13,180 empathy that hault seemed to have for 2066 01:28:17,010 --> 01:28:15,310 the men under his command that I had 2067 01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:17,020 never actually in perhaps he had but I 2068 01:28:20,790 --> 01:28:18,610 had never heard and publicly sort of 2069 01:28:23,250 --> 01:28:20,800 talked about this that he thought that 2070 01:28:24,900 --> 01:28:23,260 they had been very poorly treated that 2071 01:28:28,140 --> 01:28:24,910 there was something that they hadn't 2072 01:28:31,260 --> 01:28:28,150 been told and I think he genuinely felt 2073 01:28:32,940 --> 01:28:31,270 very badly about that because he was you 2074 01:28:34,950 --> 01:28:32,950 know their commanding officer and he 2075 01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:34,960 couldn't help them I think he felt a bit 2076 01:28:38,460 --> 01:28:36,850 guilty about that and so when you talk 2077 01:28:40,610 --> 01:28:38,470 about common interests that these people 2078 01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:40,620 have the bridge between officers and 2079 01:28:46,050 --> 01:28:43,930 enlisted personnel I think that might be 2080 01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:46,060 the bridge I think the officers in this 2081 01:28:49,500 --> 01:28:48,370 case halt has a great deal of sympathy 2082 01:28:51,150 --> 01:28:49,510 for the people that were under his 2083 01:28:52,440 --> 01:28:51,160 command and feels a great deal of 2084 01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:52,450 responsibility that burden of 2085 01:28:55,950 --> 01:28:54,250 responsibility for not being able to 2086 01:28:57,600 --> 01:28:55,960 give them an answer for not being able 2087 01:28:59,910 --> 01:28:57,610 to help them the way I think he thinks 2088 01:29:02,070 --> 01:28:59,920 he he should have have you ever gotten 2089 01:29:03,810 --> 01:29:02,080 that read from Colonel halt I'll tell 2090 01:29:05,700 --> 01:29:03,820 you what before Nick Pope answers that 2091 01:29:09,590 --> 01:29:05,710 question about whether we got that lead 2092 01:29:14,910 --> 01:29:11,930 [Music] 2093 01:29:17,010 --> 01:29:14,920 hi this is Tamar from Nietzsche we're a 2094 01:29:18,990 --> 01:29:17,020 domain name and web hosting company and 2095 01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:19,000 we really care about our customers with 2096 01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:21,010 domain name purchases Namecheap offers 2097 01:29:24,900 --> 01:29:23,290 free SSL and free who is guard for a 2098 01:29:26,730 --> 01:29:24,910 year to protect your identity from 2099 01:29:28,890 --> 01:29:26,740 spammers we won't bother you with 2100 01:29:30,900 --> 01:29:28,900 unwanted messaging in your inbox or upon 2101 01:29:32,550 --> 01:29:30,910 checkout but most importantly we care 2102 01:29:34,380 --> 01:29:32,560 about you our customers your 2103 01:29:36,450 --> 01:29:34,390 satisfaction and happiness is our 2104 01:29:38,250 --> 01:29:36,460 primary focus because your support means 2105 01:29:40,110 --> 01:29:38,260 so much to us if you'd like to learn 2106 01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:40,120 more please visit us at Radio 2107 01:29:44,940 --> 01:29:42,610 namecheap.com for web hosting and domain 2108 01:29:50,370 --> 01:29:44,950 name specials you can also follow us on 2109 01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:50,380 twitter at twitter.com/zeromd bars on 2110 01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:52,810 facebook at facebook.com slash Namecheap 2111 01:29:59,910 --> 01:29:57,610 see you online you're in the pair guests 2112 01:30:01,770 --> 01:29:59,920 you never know what other we have I'm an 2113 01:30:04,689 --> 01:30:01,780 ass 2114 01:30:08,389 --> 01:30:04,699 [Applause] 2115 01:30:10,759 --> 01:30:08,399 our co-host is Paul Kimball we have Nick 2116 01:30:13,189 --> 01:30:10,769 Pope and just a reminder for power cast 2117 01:30:15,919 --> 01:30:13,199 listeners we have an interview with John 2118 01:30:19,699 --> 01:30:15,929 burrows where he sat across from me in 2119 01:30:21,679 --> 01:30:19,709 our main studio June 21st 2009 check it 2120 01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:21,689 out the power cast come for the link 2121 01:30:28,159 --> 01:30:24,510 okay Nick we await your answer okay 2122 01:30:30,919 --> 01:30:28,169 again recapping just getting I guess 2123 01:30:32,540 --> 01:30:30,929 back to the meaning of old question I 2124 01:30:36,350 --> 01:30:32,550 think one of the most interesting things 2125 01:30:39,290 --> 01:30:36,360 about this is that when you look and yes 2126 01:30:41,959 --> 01:30:39,300 I absolutely agree that I often talk 2127 01:30:44,299 --> 01:30:41,969 about police and military witnesses and 2128 01:30:46,279 --> 01:30:44,309 I never say these people are infallible 2129 01:30:50,060 --> 01:30:46,289 of course there's no such thing as an 2130 01:30:52,040 --> 01:30:50,070 infallible witness but it is interesting 2131 01:30:53,540 --> 01:30:52,050 when one gets these sorts of witnesses 2132 01:30:57,859 --> 01:30:53,550 and the interesting thing about the 2133 01:30:59,839 --> 01:30:57,869 Bentwaters witnesses is that even if you 2134 01:31:00,709 --> 01:30:59,849 say military witnesses are not 2135 01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:00,719 infallible 2136 01:31:06,290 --> 01:31:04,050 in terms of the sorts of branches of the 2137 01:31:09,589 --> 01:31:06,300 military that these people were in it 2138 01:31:12,049 --> 01:31:09,599 puts them just about as high up the 2139 01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:12,059 league table as it would be possible to 2140 01:31:18,379 --> 01:31:15,090 get in that these people were law 2141 01:31:20,979 --> 01:31:18,389 enforcement and security personnel agree 2142 01:31:23,810 --> 01:31:20,989 I think that's that's the one thing 2143 01:31:26,959 --> 01:31:23,820 military does not mean infallible but in 2144 01:31:31,969 --> 01:31:26,969 terms of who these people were they were 2145 01:31:34,909 --> 01:31:31,979 you know pretty reliable people and in 2146 01:31:37,759 --> 01:31:34,919 the spectrum of things maybe people who 2147 01:31:40,939 --> 01:31:37,769 were less likely than others to make 2148 01:31:44,689 --> 01:31:40,949 mistakes now going on to the other issue 2149 01:31:47,409 --> 01:31:44,699 this this again this critical issue of 2150 01:31:51,500 --> 01:31:47,419 the differences between the officers and 2151 01:31:55,549 --> 01:31:51,510 the other ranks I mean this is a massive 2152 01:31:59,239 --> 01:31:55,559 issue and it has the potential to make 2153 01:32:01,339 --> 01:31:59,249 or break this case I think if everything 2154 01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:01,349 goes right the officers and the other 2155 01:32:07,580 --> 01:32:04,530 ranks should come together and say look 2156 01:32:10,729 --> 01:32:07,590 again mrs. Obama there is more that 2157 01:32:12,290 --> 01:32:10,739 binds us together than sets us apart but 2158 01:32:14,599 --> 01:32:12,300 I think if you wanted to drive a wedge 2159 01:32:15,900 --> 01:32:14,609 between people it would be possible to 2160 01:32:19,110 --> 01:32:15,910 do that 2161 01:32:21,870 --> 01:32:19,120 and I think there is a danger here that 2162 01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:21,880 people will feel anger about this 2163 01:32:26,730 --> 01:32:23,530 particularly some of the people who were 2164 01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:26,740 maybe 18 19 20 at the time this was 2165 01:32:33,210 --> 01:32:30,610 their first overseas tour of duty they 2166 01:32:35,130 --> 01:32:33,220 were thrown into a situation above and 2167 01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:35,140 beyond their experience there's nothing 2168 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:38,530 in the manual on this very very 2169 01:32:43,500 --> 01:32:42,010 difficult situation so I don't know how 2170 01:32:47,790 --> 01:32:43,510 that's going to play out 2171 01:32:50,370 --> 01:32:47,800 I do hope that these people will talk to 2172 01:32:53,610 --> 01:32:50,380 each other and that's not not end up in 2173 01:32:55,170 --> 01:32:53,620 a confrontational situation but that is 2174 01:32:57,150 --> 01:32:55,180 a danger I think one of the most 2175 01:33:00,300 --> 01:32:57,160 interesting things is there are some 2176 01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:00,310 junior officers and some medium ranking 2177 01:33:08,250 --> 01:33:04,330 officers whose names we know but who 2178 01:33:10,740 --> 01:33:08,260 perhaps we need a little bit more direct 2179 01:33:13,980 --> 01:33:10,750 testimony from Bruce England 2180 01:33:16,740 --> 01:33:13,990 Malcolm Sickler people like that those 2181 01:33:19,530 --> 01:33:16,750 that perhaps the people that we need to 2182 01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:19,540 hear from to say what can you add to me 2183 01:33:22,830 --> 01:33:21,610 one of the things just to pick up on 2184 01:33:25,050 --> 01:33:22,840 something you said about military and 2185 01:33:26,820 --> 01:33:25,060 police witnesses and I absolutely agree 2186 01:33:29,220 --> 01:33:26,830 about the quality of the witnesses in 2187 01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:29,230 the Rendlesham case in particular but 2188 01:33:33,420 --> 01:33:30,730 the one thing that I would say that 2189 01:33:35,370 --> 01:33:33,430 military and police personnel in 2190 01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:35,380 particular police personnel have over 2191 01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:37,330 your average civilian witness having 2192 01:33:41,820 --> 01:33:39,130 been a police officer with the RCMP 2193 01:33:43,380 --> 01:33:41,830 briefly in my younger days is that the 2194 01:33:44,550 --> 01:33:43,390 first thing they drill into you even 2195 01:33:47,220 --> 01:33:44,560 when you're a special constable 2196 01:33:48,780 --> 01:33:47,230 notetaking when you see something when 2197 01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:48,790 you observe something you don't just 2198 01:33:52,770 --> 01:33:50,610 rely on your memory you take notes 2199 01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:52,780 almost immediately and certainly very 2200 01:33:56,790 --> 01:33:54,850 shortly thereafter so that you have a 2201 01:33:58,530 --> 01:33:56,800 record of what you saw I think that's 2202 01:34:00,150 --> 01:33:58,540 often overlooked and I don't think most 2203 01:34:02,370 --> 01:34:00,160 civilians do that I don't think most 2204 01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:02,380 people when they see things like UFOs or 2205 01:34:06,480 --> 01:34:03,730 whatever would run home and write a 2206 01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:06,490 lengthy report on what they've seen they 2207 01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:07,930 might tell people but they're relying 2208 01:34:11,790 --> 01:34:10,090 probably on memory whereas a police 2209 01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:11,800 officer certainly a military police 2210 01:34:16,370 --> 01:34:13,690 officer I would suspect most military 2211 01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:16,380 personnel required to write reports 2212 01:34:20,790 --> 01:34:18,490 shortly thereafter when the memories 2213 01:34:22,500 --> 01:34:20,800 fresh but they also had an opportunity 2214 01:34:23,790 --> 01:34:22,510 to reflect for a bit about what's 2215 01:34:25,890 --> 01:34:23,800 happened and I think that's the perfect 2216 01:34:27,690 --> 01:34:25,900 kind of report where your memories fresh 2217 01:34:28,470 --> 01:34:27,700 but you've had an hour or two or three 2218 01:34:30,090 --> 01:34:28,480 to sort of 2219 01:34:31,979 --> 01:34:30,100 step back from it and reflect on what's 2220 01:34:34,500 --> 01:34:31,989 happened so I just wanted to make that 2221 01:34:36,540 --> 01:34:34,510 point well that's where again just 2222 01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:36,550 interrupting but it's interesting to 2223 01:34:40,229 --> 01:34:38,010 look at Jim peniston's 2224 01:34:44,220 --> 01:34:40,239 testimony and of course his police 2225 01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:44,230 notebook and that's something that's in 2226 01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:46,510 the public domain again I don't have it 2227 01:34:51,180 --> 01:34:48,850 in front of me but I do remember this 2228 01:34:56,910 --> 01:34:51,190 one quote that I think he scribbled down 2229 01:34:58,650 --> 01:34:56,920 where it said speed impossible yeah 2230 01:35:01,140 --> 01:34:58,660 we actually I think we have a couple of 2231 01:35:03,420 --> 01:35:01,150 penniston's drawings in the best 2232 01:35:06,300 --> 01:35:03,430 evidence family as I recall the clip I 2233 01:35:08,940 --> 01:35:06,310 will post the clip from my film when a 2234 01:35:11,070 --> 01:35:08,950 thread pops up on this show on the pair 2235 01:35:13,830 --> 01:35:11,080 of cast forms I'll post the clip from my 2236 01:35:15,270 --> 01:35:13,840 film which nick is in and some of 2237 01:35:17,100 --> 01:35:15,280 penniston's drugs are there an interview 2238 01:35:19,260 --> 01:35:17,110 with Colonel halt and hopefully folks 2239 01:35:20,820 --> 01:35:19,270 will look I think people are familiar 2240 01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:20,830 with the rendition case but it really is 2241 01:35:24,300 --> 01:35:22,330 I think one of the five or six best 2242 01:35:26,940 --> 01:35:24,310 cases and people should really delve 2243 01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:26,950 into it much more deeply than just a 2244 01:35:32,190 --> 01:35:29,050 surface examination of what happened 2245 01:35:33,660 --> 01:35:32,200 okay Nick it's now I house what are your 2246 01:35:36,930 --> 01:35:33,670 thoughts about what it might be oh 2247 01:35:39,540 --> 01:35:36,940 goodness I mean you know again I come 2248 01:35:43,950 --> 01:35:39,550 back to this idea that if if it isn't 2249 01:35:46,500 --> 01:35:43,960 something totally exotic and above and 2250 01:35:48,630 --> 01:35:46,510 beyond our understanding then maybe 2251 01:35:52,790 --> 01:35:48,640 we're going to this idea of some blank 2252 01:35:57,150 --> 01:35:52,800 project some secret prototype drone 2253 01:35:59,820 --> 01:35:57,160 testing defences maybe it's British 2254 01:36:03,930 --> 01:35:59,830 maybe it's American maybe it's Russian I 2255 01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:03,940 don't know if it was something a test 2256 01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:06,010 aircraft why would you keep it secret 2257 01:36:11,220 --> 01:36:08,050 for so long because we're assuming would 2258 01:36:13,530 --> 01:36:11,230 already be deployed by the time yeah 20 2259 01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:13,540 30 years later this is the problem this 2260 01:36:20,940 --> 01:36:15,730 is the problem with that particular 2261 01:36:23,300 --> 01:36:20,950 theory and I know that shanks la has put 2262 01:36:26,790 --> 01:36:23,310 forward the theory that this was some 2263 01:36:28,979 --> 01:36:26,800 psychological operation assault that 2264 01:36:32,850 --> 01:36:28,989 these people would deliberately set up 2265 01:36:37,470 --> 01:36:32,860 that this scenario was constructed and 2266 01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:37,480 these events unfolded to try to provoke 2267 01:36:42,540 --> 01:36:40,210 a reaction from these people or rather 2268 01:36:45,840 --> 01:36:42,550 test what reaction there would be will 2269 01:36:48,510 --> 01:36:45,850 they ignore it will they shoot at it 2270 01:36:52,770 --> 01:36:48,520 what will they do now I don't actually 2271 01:36:57,320 --> 01:36:52,780 believe that because here's my point if 2272 01:37:00,750 --> 01:36:57,330 this was a PSYOP if this was some 2273 01:37:03,630 --> 01:37:00,760 carefully constructed event whereby the 2274 01:37:06,660 --> 01:37:03,640 powers that be said we're going to 2275 01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:06,670 create an incident we can do intrude 2276 01:37:13,020 --> 01:37:10,570 into the controlled airspace we're going 2277 01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:13,030 to see how these people react so that we 2278 01:37:18,479 --> 01:37:16,090 can maybe manipulate and construct our 2279 01:37:21,090 --> 01:37:18,489 own scenarios the one thing they 2280 01:37:23,899 --> 01:37:21,100 wouldn't have done is then let this 2281 01:37:27,030 --> 01:37:23,909 whole scenario play itself out whereby 2282 01:37:29,820 --> 01:37:27,040 the United States Air Force made a 2283 01:37:33,030 --> 01:37:29,830 report to the Ministry of Defense files 2284 01:37:35,610 --> 01:37:33,040 got created know if this was a PSYOP 2285 01:37:38,550 --> 01:37:35,620 what would have happened would have been 2286 01:37:41,100 --> 01:37:38,560 this they would have run the ARB and 2287 01:37:43,979 --> 01:37:41,110 then they would have just picked up a 2288 01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:43,989 phone and said look guys it's a PSYOP 2289 01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:47,050 it's classified above top secret don't 2290 01:37:53,220 --> 01:37:50,730 discuss it forget it end of story and no 2291 01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:53,230 documents would ever have been created 2292 01:37:57,510 --> 01:37:55,090 there would have been no paper trail 2293 01:37:59,160 --> 01:37:57,520 no witnesses would have spoken about it 2294 01:38:00,899 --> 01:37:59,170 end of story okay 2295 01:38:02,790 --> 01:38:00,909 just looking at the overall picture and 2296 01:38:05,340 --> 01:38:02,800 Paul has a question but let me just ask 2297 01:38:07,229 --> 01:38:05,350 you about the overall picture now a 2298 01:38:09,090 --> 01:38:07,239 couple of rounds of Ministry of Defence 2299 01:38:11,130 --> 01:38:09,100 documents about UFOs have been released 2300 01:38:12,979 --> 01:38:11,140 and this is going into something maybe 2301 01:38:15,050 --> 01:38:12,989 you can't even say is there much left 2302 01:38:19,350 --> 01:38:15,060 yes 2303 01:38:21,870 --> 01:38:19,360 all these batches of energy UFO FILES 2304 01:38:23,939 --> 01:38:21,880 have been released this the the 2305 01:38:25,020 --> 01:38:23,949 declassification and release of the NRDC 2306 01:38:32,910 --> 01:38:25,030 UFO FILES 2307 01:38:35,610 --> 01:38:32,920 began in May 2008 the last batch v batch 2308 01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:35,620 that was released was 18th of february 2309 01:38:43,380 --> 01:38:39,610 this year 2010 this is an ongoing 2310 01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:43,390 process and absolutely there is no 2311 01:38:50,459 --> 01:38:46,210 smoking gun there's no spaceship in a 2312 01:38:53,780 --> 01:38:50,469 hangar document but there are thousands 2313 01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:53,790 and thousands of absolutely fascinating 2314 01:39:00,960 --> 01:38:57,010 documents on this as I say we've had 2315 01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:00,970 five batches of files so far the six is 2316 01:39:08,070 --> 01:39:04,090 out I think very shortly in in the 2317 01:39:11,070 --> 01:39:08,080 summer so yeah this is a interesting 2318 01:39:12,630 --> 01:39:11,080 story oh we used our game show here in 2319 01:39:14,310 --> 01:39:12,640 Canada for high school students called 2320 01:39:16,710 --> 01:39:14,320 reach for the top where they would it 2321 01:39:17,730 --> 01:39:16,720 was kind of a quiz show and at the end 2322 01:39:19,590 --> 01:39:17,740 they would have what they called the 2323 01:39:21,260 --> 01:39:19,600 short snappers section where they would 2324 01:39:24,180 --> 01:39:21,270 ask you a bunch of quick questions and 2325 01:39:26,430 --> 01:39:24,190 totally unrelated to anything sort of in 2326 01:39:27,390 --> 01:39:26,440 a series of non sequiturs so that's what 2327 01:39:28,950 --> 01:39:27,400 I'm gonna do I'm gonna place the short 2328 01:39:30,540 --> 01:39:28,960 sampras with you Nick as we run into 2329 01:39:32,850 --> 01:39:30,550 what I think are about the final 15 2330 01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:32,860 minutes okay before we do that before we 2331 01:39:39,530 --> 01:39:34,570 have this short and snappy pithy 2332 01:39:41,790 --> 01:39:39,540 responses I understand the chief pissy 2333 01:39:44,130 --> 01:39:41,800 person right now is none other than 2334 01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:44,140 Apple Steve Jobs for those one two three 2335 01:39:54,170 --> 01:39:46,810 word responses everybody quotes from him 2336 01:39:59,669 --> 01:39:56,609 [Music] 2337 01:40:02,189 --> 01:39:59,679 for 58 years fate has provided true 2338 01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:02,199 reports of the strange and unknown fate 2339 01:40:06,450 --> 01:40:04,570 brings you the latest in all aspects of 2340 01:40:09,990 --> 01:40:06,460 the paranormal like angels and miracles 2341 01:40:12,450 --> 01:40:10,000 psychic phenomena ghosts UFOs and much 2342 01:40:15,330 --> 01:40:12,460 much more to receive your complimentary 2343 01:40:18,839 --> 01:40:15,340 faith magazine call now at one eight 2344 01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:18,849 hundred seven two eight two seven three 2345 01:40:25,770 --> 01:40:22,690 Oh or visit their website at WWF at mag 2346 01:40:32,129 --> 01:40:25,780 comm that's one eight hundred seven two 2347 01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:32,139 eight two seven three zero or WWF a TEM 2348 01:40:37,250 --> 01:40:35,530 AG comm what are you waiting for your 2349 01:40:52,930 --> 01:40:37,260 fate awaits 2350 01:41:10,330 --> 01:41:00,680 [Music] 2351 01:41:18,010 --> 01:41:13,100 we have Nick poke our co-host is Paul 2352 01:41:21,830 --> 01:41:18,020 Kimball and now short and pithy Paul 2353 01:41:23,690 --> 01:41:21,840 shortened pith helmet e-911 dick give us 2354 01:41:26,290 --> 01:41:23,700 the short story on 911 because and I 2355 01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:26,300 just to set this up the ex Conference 2356 01:41:30,740 --> 01:41:28,650 2007 you and I in the hotel bar 2357 01:41:32,390 --> 01:41:30,750 surrounded by a bunch of very friendly 2358 01:41:34,670 --> 01:41:32,400 at the start and perhaps not so friendly 2359 01:41:37,820 --> 01:41:34,680 people at the end discussing over a beer 2360 01:41:39,650 --> 01:41:37,830 to 911 and I think you were definitely 2361 01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:39,660 labeled a government stooge and I'm 2362 01:41:43,490 --> 01:41:42,090 pretty sure I was because we both were 2363 01:41:46,190 --> 01:41:43,500 supporting what you might call the 2364 01:41:48,110 --> 01:41:46,200 official line on on 9/11 surrounded by 2365 01:41:49,820 --> 01:41:48,120 people who did not but I do remember 2366 01:41:52,010 --> 01:41:49,830 asking one of them at one point I said 2367 01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:52,020 we'll have you read the 9/11 Commission 2368 01:41:56,930 --> 01:41:54,810 report he looked at me and he said no I 2369 01:41:59,030 --> 01:41:56,940 don't have to I know it's wrong talk a 2370 01:42:00,590 --> 01:41:59,040 bit about the 9/11 conspiracy theory 2371 01:42:04,190 --> 01:42:00,600 Nick and what your views on that are 2372 01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:04,200 well I did 21 years in ministry defense 2373 01:42:10,460 --> 01:42:07,290 and my last charity tea was in the 2374 01:42:14,390 --> 01:42:10,470 Directorate of Defense security deputy 2375 01:42:19,070 --> 01:42:14,400 director level 9/11 was done by Al Qaeda 2376 01:42:21,730 --> 01:42:19,080 and these people were as the 9/11 2377 01:42:25,220 --> 01:42:21,740 Commission report correctly said 2378 01:42:28,130 --> 01:42:25,230 disciplined patient sophisticated and 2379 01:42:31,580 --> 01:42:28,140 lethal these were well-funded people 2380 01:42:34,850 --> 01:42:31,590 they had training they had last but the 2381 01:42:38,180 --> 01:42:34,860 idea that this was an inside job or even 2382 01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:38,190 that that was allowed to happen I'm 2383 01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:39,930 afraid I have no truck with that 2384 01:42:45,710 --> 01:42:43,770 whatsoever it's absolutely not supported 2385 01:42:47,480 --> 01:42:45,720 by anything the fact can you on your 2386 01:42:49,040 --> 01:42:47,490 website you bring up a point you have a 2387 01:42:51,890 --> 01:42:49,050 you're on a page that talks about 2388 01:42:53,750 --> 01:42:51,900 conspiracy theories and in part you 2389 01:42:56,840 --> 01:42:53,760 mentioned the darker side to some 2390 01:42:58,970 --> 01:42:56,850 conspiracy theories and you you say 2391 01:43:00,800 --> 01:42:58,980 particularly those involving a new world 2392 01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:00,810 order where phrases such as conspiracy 2393 01:43:05,930 --> 01:43:03,090 of international bankers are often used 2394 01:43:07,850 --> 01:43:05,940 to mask anti-semitism which is something 2395 01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:07,860 that I've written about I know a lot of 2396 01:43:13,430 --> 01:43:10,890 people who who have have you seen her in 2397 01:43:16,970 --> 01:43:13,440 sundel the Holocaust denier began his 2398 01:43:19,670 --> 01:43:16,980 career by talking about UFOs and he was 2399 01:43:21,990 --> 01:43:19,680 using UFO stood to pull naive people 2400 01:43:24,750 --> 01:43:22,000 into his web of Holocaust denial 2401 01:43:27,450 --> 01:43:24,760 do you still see that in the UFO field 2402 01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:27,460 in particular or in the use sort of the 2403 01:43:32,700 --> 01:43:29,890 paranormal or the conspiracy field in 2404 01:43:34,350 --> 01:43:32,710 general this this sort of strain of 2405 01:43:35,730 --> 01:43:34,360 anti-semitism that runs through it 2406 01:43:37,730 --> 01:43:35,740 perhaps you can talk a bit about that 2407 01:43:41,550 --> 01:43:37,740 I'm not familiar with that particular 2408 01:43:44,210 --> 01:43:41,560 individual but this is certainly and and 2409 01:43:46,890 --> 01:43:44,220 again I'm not going to name names but 2410 01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:46,900 there are some people in the UK 2411 01:43:56,240 --> 01:43:51,330 ufology kind of you know field they're 2412 01:44:01,640 --> 01:43:56,250 actually some UK ufology skeptics who 2413 01:44:05,930 --> 01:44:01,650 fairly aggressive and loudmouth and and 2414 01:44:09,900 --> 01:44:05,940 Aunty certain shall we say fairly common 2415 01:44:14,490 --> 01:44:09,910 UFO researchers in in the US and in 2416 01:44:15,630 --> 01:44:14,500 Canada and you know again I'm choosing 2417 01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:15,640 my words carefully 2418 01:44:21,950 --> 01:44:18,850 but one of these people runs an anti 2419 01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:21,960 Israeli blog and he's like well these 2420 01:44:28,140 --> 01:44:25,090 Israelis are really really bad people 2421 01:44:30,060 --> 01:44:28,150 and it's like you know sometimes you see 2422 01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:30,070 what I saying well why don't you tell us 2423 01:44:35,670 --> 01:44:32,770 what you really think and and I think 2424 01:44:37,650 --> 01:44:35,680 there's there's a real real danger with 2425 01:44:40,830 --> 01:44:37,660 some of this there are some people who 2426 01:44:44,340 --> 01:44:40,840 are trying to position themselves as 2427 01:44:47,790 --> 01:44:44,350 liberal pros Halas Tinian anti Israeli 2428 01:44:51,390 --> 01:44:47,800 people who really want one does wonder 2429 01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:51,400 is there not a darker side here and and 2430 01:44:57,690 --> 01:44:53,530 as I say I've made a lot of these people 2431 01:45:00,420 --> 01:44:57,700 it's very very scary you hear people who 2432 01:45:02,820 --> 01:45:00,430 are entirely reasonable and then 2433 01:45:06,330 --> 01:45:02,830 suddenly they come up with these phrases 2434 01:45:09,060 --> 01:45:06,340 like conspiracy of international bankers 2435 01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:09,070 and you know what they're really saying 2436 01:45:13,980 --> 01:45:12,010 but there are a little bit too cowardly 2437 01:45:18,660 --> 01:45:13,990 to actually come out and say it straight 2438 01:45:21,570 --> 01:45:18,670 out a little too smart perhaps it's yeah 2439 01:45:23,700 --> 01:45:21,580 I've studied sort of anti-semitism and 2440 01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:23,710 conspiracy theories Amir's and there are 2441 01:45:27,930 --> 01:45:25,930 catchphrases there you know you can be 2442 01:45:30,420 --> 01:45:27,940 anti-israel in terms of the policies 2443 01:45:33,300 --> 01:45:30,430 pursued by the Israeli cause III know I 2444 01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:33,310 I have many Jewish friends and I know an 2445 01:45:37,589 --> 01:45:34,570 awful lot of them who 2446 01:45:40,859 --> 01:45:37,599 I'm not necessarily comfortable with 2447 01:45:43,669 --> 01:45:40,869 what the current state of Israel is is 2448 01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:43,679 doing in terms of the government policy 2449 01:45:47,879 --> 01:45:46,570 whatever why you know what there's a 2450 01:45:50,399 --> 01:45:47,889 world of difference between that and 2451 01:45:54,709 --> 01:45:50,409 some of the somewhere between naivety 2452 01:45:57,839 --> 01:45:54,719 and racism the supports for their anti 2453 01:46:00,270 --> 01:45:57,849 Israeli anti Zionist sentiment on on 2454 01:46:01,979 --> 01:46:00,280 certain website yeah no absolutely I 2455 01:46:06,510 --> 01:46:01,989 think I know the people in the UK you're 2456 01:46:09,180 --> 01:46:06,520 talking about into them the less said 2457 01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:09,190 the better okay Nick here's the next 2458 01:46:13,379 --> 01:46:11,290 short snapper I was at a party about a 2459 01:46:14,910 --> 01:46:13,389 month ago with a very pretty young model 2460 01:46:17,339 --> 01:46:14,920 actress and we started talking about 2461 01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:17,349 UFOs did I say very pretty she is very 2462 01:46:24,990 --> 01:46:20,170 pretty and she wanted to know she was 2463 01:46:27,689 --> 01:46:25,000 very very concerned about 2012 and like 2464 01:46:29,339 --> 01:46:27,699 is the end of the world coming and what 2465 01:46:30,959 --> 01:46:29,349 about the Mayan prophecies and all this 2466 01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:30,969 sort of stuff and I noticed on your 2467 01:46:34,530 --> 01:46:32,050 website you've witness 2468 01:46:36,270 --> 01:46:34,540 you've written a bit about 2012 perhaps 2469 01:46:37,620 --> 01:46:36,280 you can give us your bog-standard for 2470 01:46:39,209 --> 01:46:37,630 the folks on the para Castform there 2471 01:46:41,339 --> 01:46:39,219 might be interested what do you think of 2472 01:46:42,959 --> 01:46:41,349 all the 2012 stuff that is is really 2473 01:46:45,930 --> 01:46:42,969 going on now and as we move closer 2474 01:46:48,839 --> 01:46:45,940 towards that day in 2012 I think it's 2475 01:46:50,520 --> 01:46:48,849 gonna be as big as y2k was 10 or 11 2476 01:46:54,030 --> 01:46:50,530 years ago well so what are your thoughts 2477 01:46:59,700 --> 01:46:54,040 on 2012 well yes indeed this is gonna be 2478 01:47:01,140 --> 01:46:59,710 as big as y2k and Nostradamus 1999 but I 2479 01:47:04,169 --> 01:47:01,150 think in a sense you wanted your own 2480 01:47:09,149 --> 01:47:04,179 question absolutely the same is going to 2481 01:47:11,069 --> 01:47:09,159 happen in 2012 has happened in 1999 when 2482 01:47:14,010 --> 01:47:11,079 many many people thought that the world 2483 01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:14,020 was going to end ie absolutely nothing 2484 01:47:17,910 --> 01:47:16,210 I'll tell you why I feel strongly about 2485 01:47:22,709 --> 01:47:17,920 this and I'll give you a little 2486 01:47:26,040 --> 01:47:22,719 practical example Troy works now as a 2487 01:47:30,120 --> 01:47:26,050 freelancer I stayed on a writing TV and 2488 01:47:32,790 --> 01:47:30,130 radio work in the UK the other day I was 2489 01:47:35,609 --> 01:47:32,800 doing something for the BBC and I was 2490 01:47:39,959 --> 01:47:35,619 doing a radio interview with one of the 2491 01:47:44,370 --> 01:47:39,969 BBC's regional programs and before we 2492 01:47:45,330 --> 01:47:44,380 got started the presenter said me she 2493 01:47:48,180 --> 01:47:45,340 said 2494 01:47:52,410 --> 01:47:48,190 you send a message to a 2495 01:47:54,810 --> 01:47:52,420 fourteen-year-old boy actually it's 2496 01:47:57,479 --> 01:47:54,820 refusing to do his homework because he 2497 01:48:00,080 --> 01:47:57,489 said the world can end in 2012 and 2498 01:48:03,780 --> 01:48:00,090 there's no point in studying I was 2499 01:48:07,830 --> 01:48:03,790 absolutely flabbergasted and I thought 2500 01:48:10,830 --> 01:48:07,840 my goodness you know if this is the sort 2501 01:48:15,990 --> 01:48:10,840 of effect that this is having then I do 2502 01:48:20,310 --> 01:48:16,000 need to speak out on this and so yes on 2503 01:48:23,490 --> 01:48:20,320 my website I have an essay where I point 2504 01:48:25,620 --> 01:48:23,500 out that you know again wanting not 2505 01:48:31,050 --> 01:48:25,630 wanting to sound too flippant about it 2506 01:48:33,780 --> 01:48:31,060 but every year I buy a calendar and at 2507 01:48:37,530 --> 01:48:33,790 the end of every year my calendar runs 2508 01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:37,540 out and I throw it away but just because 2509 01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:40,090 my calendar runs out it doesn't mean the 2510 01:48:45,899 --> 01:48:42,730 world ends it just means I buy another 2511 01:48:50,250 --> 01:48:45,909 calendar so when people talk about the 2512 01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:50,260 Mayan calendar or together technically 2513 01:48:56,459 --> 01:48:52,810 correct I think the Mesoamerican Long 2514 01:48:58,830 --> 01:48:56,469 Count calendar just just because that 2515 01:49:03,089 --> 01:48:58,840 finishes it doesn't mean the world ends 2516 01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:03,099 there's no we don't have a mindset not 2517 01:49:09,089 --> 01:49:06,610 least because so few codex is survived 2518 01:49:10,740 --> 01:49:09,099 of these people we don't have a mindset 2519 01:49:13,020 --> 01:49:10,750 into what these people believed what 2520 01:49:18,470 --> 01:49:13,030 they thought their religion their belief 2521 01:49:22,410 --> 01:49:18,480 systems so yeah I'm absolutely a 2522 01:49:24,930 --> 01:49:22,420 believer that 2012 is going to be an 2523 01:49:31,820 --> 01:49:24,940 interesting situation and if people use 2524 01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:31,830 that to reassess their lives their 2525 01:49:37,770 --> 01:49:34,690 philosophy then that's a great thing 2526 01:49:42,839 --> 01:49:37,780 but if people think that the world is 2527 01:49:46,500 --> 01:49:42,849 going to end if people want to hook up 2528 01:49:50,879 --> 01:49:46,510 with cults as as we saw all too 2529 01:49:53,850 --> 01:49:50,889 tragically in relation to Hale Bopp in 2530 01:49:57,540 --> 01:49:53,860 Heaven's Gate for example then that's a 2531 01:49:59,109 --> 01:49:57,550 dreadful thing so 2012 is interesting 2532 01:50:02,830 --> 01:49:59,119 and if that gives you 2533 01:50:07,389 --> 01:50:02,840 interesting that the Mayans in ancient 2534 01:50:09,959 --> 01:50:07,399 cultures in spiritual renewal late but 2535 01:50:12,879 --> 01:50:09,969 don't think the world can end it's not 2536 01:50:14,919 --> 01:50:12,889 and you know what just in case the world 2537 01:50:17,080 --> 01:50:14,929 does end in 2012 here's the last thing 2538 01:50:19,929 --> 01:50:17,090 I'm gonna say before 2012 rolls around 2539 01:50:22,750 --> 01:50:19,939 you should read operation Thunder child 2540 01:50:25,810 --> 01:50:22,760 an operation lightning strike two books 2541 01:50:28,779 --> 01:50:25,820 written by Nick Pope and I think this 2542 01:50:30,489 --> 01:50:28,789 might be a bit of your bio or your CV 2543 01:50:32,709 --> 01:50:30,499 that maybe not a lot of people and maybe 2544 01:50:35,319 --> 01:50:32,719 not as many people as you know about you 2545 01:50:39,399 --> 01:50:35,329 UFO work realize you've actually written 2546 01:50:41,199 --> 01:50:39,409 two novels that had to be vetted as your 2547 01:50:42,939 --> 01:50:41,209 website says the only two sci-fi books 2548 01:50:46,540 --> 01:50:42,949 ever to be vetted by the British 2549 01:50:48,129 --> 01:50:46,550 government prior to publication just I'm 2550 01:50:49,719 --> 01:50:48,139 curious talking bit about Operation 2551 01:50:51,639 --> 01:50:49,729 Thunder child and operation lightning 2552 01:50:53,859 --> 01:50:51,649 strike what are the books about and why 2553 01:50:56,020 --> 01:50:53,869 did you want to get involved in writing 2554 01:50:58,839 --> 01:50:56,030 science fiction well sure I'd I'd 2555 01:51:02,049 --> 01:50:58,849 written I'd written two non-fiction 2556 01:51:07,629 --> 01:51:02,059 books one on UFOs and one on alien 2557 01:51:09,790 --> 01:51:07,639 abductions and my agent said we are a 2558 01:51:12,850 --> 01:51:09,800 bit of a roll what what do you want to 2559 01:51:14,949 --> 01:51:12,860 do next and I actually said well I don't 2560 01:51:18,129 --> 01:51:14,959 want to be popular right I want to you 2561 01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:18,139 know necessarily plate of top ten I 2562 01:51:22,449 --> 01:51:20,449 wanted to do what I want to do and I 2563 01:51:27,939 --> 01:51:22,459 always had this idea that I wanted to 2564 01:51:32,109 --> 01:51:27,949 write if I final so I made these two 2565 01:51:36,939 --> 01:51:32,119 books about alien invasion and you know 2566 01:51:40,330 --> 01:51:36,949 because at the time I wrote them I still 2567 01:51:45,399 --> 01:51:40,340 worked into defense even though these 2568 01:51:49,959 --> 01:51:45,409 were station books sci-fi I actually had 2569 01:51:52,509 --> 01:51:49,969 to submit the text to the Ministry of 2570 01:51:55,509 --> 01:51:52,519 Defense and they had to actually fear 2571 01:51:57,189 --> 01:51:55,519 them and say right we got to satisfy 2572 01:52:02,169 --> 01:51:57,199 ourselves that there's nothing in here 2573 01:52:07,089 --> 01:52:02,179 that you've incorporated on the basis of 2574 01:52:09,759 --> 01:52:07,099 your government experience sure the 2575 01:52:11,900 --> 01:52:09,769 queen isn't a lizard or anything like 2576 01:52:14,420 --> 01:52:11,910 that that's not in the books is it 2577 01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:14,430 but it's certainly not that's sorry 2578 01:52:17,480 --> 01:52:15,930 that's some other British authors season 2579 01:52:19,790 --> 01:52:17,490 that for Doctor Who or something they 2580 01:52:21,230 --> 01:52:19,800 always have word things like that I know 2581 01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:21,240 there was an episode of Doctor Who 2582 01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:23,610 recently where he sees Winston Churchill 2583 01:52:30,890 --> 01:52:26,130 who has harnessed the power of the 2584 01:52:33,380 --> 01:52:30,900 Daleks - yeah great I'm a great fan of 2585 01:52:37,210 --> 01:52:33,390 Doctor Who even though I have to admit 2586 01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:40,760 I staying on the science fiction thing 2587 01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:42,210 for just a second here's a quick 2588 01:52:46,610 --> 01:52:43,530 question for you Nick if you end the 2589 01:52:49,070 --> 01:52:46,620 opportunity to write for any sci-fi 2590 01:52:50,600 --> 01:52:49,080 television show past or present I won't 2591 01:52:52,430 --> 01:52:50,610 say future because we don't know what 2592 01:52:54,320 --> 01:52:52,440 they are but if you can pick one that's 2593 01:52:56,180 --> 01:52:54,330 going on today or is aired at any time 2594 01:52:57,740 --> 01:52:56,190 on television in the past which one 2595 01:52:59,840 --> 01:52:57,750 would you like to write for or be 2596 01:53:00,890 --> 01:52:59,850 involved in as a consultant which is 2597 01:53:02,630 --> 01:53:00,900 kind of like asking you what your 2598 01:53:03,770 --> 01:53:02,640 favorite science fiction show is but 2599 01:53:05,450 --> 01:53:03,780 I've always believed that you can learn 2600 01:53:06,200 --> 01:53:05,460 a lot about people by asking them what 2601 01:53:08,870 --> 01:53:06,210 their favorite science fiction 2602 01:53:12,460 --> 01:53:08,880 television series is so which one would 2603 01:53:15,920 --> 01:53:12,470 you pick and why I would pick Doctor Who 2604 01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:15,930 or maybe the spin-off the the kind of 2605 01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:17,970 x-rated spin-off Torchwood 2606 01:53:25,070 --> 01:53:21,570 Wren I've I've actually done some PR for 2607 01:53:27,980 --> 01:53:25,080 them but actually in terms of something 2608 01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:27,990 that again I've I've done some PR work 2609 01:53:35,020 --> 01:53:32,370 before if there's a third movie I think 2610 01:53:37,580 --> 01:53:35,030 it would be the x-files movie really 2611 01:53:39,380 --> 01:53:37,590 yeah well I mean I asked you a fast 2612 01:53:41,990 --> 01:53:39,390 question two questions number one is 2613 01:53:43,970 --> 01:53:42,000 there gonna be a possibility of a third 2614 01:53:46,370 --> 01:53:43,980 x-files movie because the previous one 2615 01:53:49,340 --> 01:53:46,380 kind of failed and will there ever be 2616 01:53:50,870 --> 01:53:49,350 another season of Torchwood or as the 2617 01:53:52,850 --> 01:53:50,880 lead actor now he's working well on 2618 01:53:55,160 --> 01:53:52,860 Desperate Housewives as some kind of 2619 01:53:58,630 --> 01:53:55,170 murderous person maybe he doesn't need 2620 01:54:01,690 --> 01:53:58,640 the job anymore yes I think they'll be 2621 01:54:05,780 --> 01:54:01,700 like I think there will be a third 2622 01:54:08,120 --> 01:54:05,790 x-files movie and Torchwood yeah that 2623 01:54:10,130 --> 01:54:08,130 that will run and run because it's it's 2624 01:54:13,450 --> 01:54:10,140 like Doctor Who but it's darker and 2625 01:54:16,820 --> 01:54:13,460 there is an appetite for that definitely 2626 01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:16,830 so well who's your favorite doctor of 2627 01:54:24,540 --> 01:54:20,090 all time then there's my last question 2628 01:54:26,819 --> 01:54:24,550 well gosh this is the question 2629 01:54:29,910 --> 01:54:26,829 about James Bond and they and they they 2630 01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:29,920 always say the first one you saw I think 2631 01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:33,610 Tom Baker really yeah it's a good choice 2632 01:54:43,950 --> 01:54:41,549 yeah but that's mother a common answer 2633 01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:43,960 but I see what you mean he he was good 2634 01:54:51,810 --> 01:54:46,210 yeah you don't hear that often he's kind 2635 01:54:53,339 --> 01:54:51,820 of like he is the Timothy Dalton Peter 2636 01:54:54,959 --> 01:54:53,349 Davison is to Doctor Who he's the 2637 01:54:56,220 --> 01:54:54,969 forgotten one who was really good but 2638 01:54:57,660 --> 01:54:56,230 nobody ever really liked him very much 2639 01:54:59,160 --> 01:54:57,670 well of course she allowed the current 2640 01:55:01,290 --> 01:54:59,170 fans and new fans of the show don't 2641 01:55:03,629 --> 01:55:01,300 remember Tom Baker but he had that 2642 01:55:06,450 --> 01:55:03,639 wackiness with the crazy curly hair and 2643 01:55:09,240 --> 01:55:06,460 everything that I think embodied Doctor 2644 01:55:10,470 --> 01:55:09,250 Who what about the one before the 2645 01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:10,480 current one the current one hasn't been 2646 01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:11,770 doing it long enough to really make a 2647 01:55:16,859 --> 01:55:15,690 judgement David Tennant David absolutely 2648 01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:16,869 brilliant 2649 01:55:24,060 --> 01:55:20,290 I mean great one of the best actors that 2650 01:55:28,319 --> 01:55:24,070 you can conceive of and and just the the 2651 01:55:31,740 --> 01:55:28,329 kind of line that he trod between genius 2652 01:55:36,510 --> 01:55:31,750 and madness and and brilliance and 2653 01:55:38,640 --> 01:55:36,520 sadness I mean brilliant acting yes last 2654 01:55:40,470 --> 01:55:38,650 episode when you know he changed and 2655 01:55:43,530 --> 01:55:40,480 became the new doctor you certainly saw 2656 01:55:46,620 --> 01:55:43,540 a very very darker Doctor Who and 2657 01:55:48,450 --> 01:55:46,630 moments where you could see it's almost 2658 01:55:49,740 --> 01:55:48,460 like that Darth Vader Anakin Skywalker 2659 01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:49,750 thing where you could almost see Doctor 2660 01:55:51,720 --> 01:55:50,170 Who 2661 01:55:54,750 --> 01:55:51,730 drifting perhaps to the dark side a 2662 01:55:56,879 --> 01:55:54,760 little bit and it's such a good actor he 2663 01:55:59,149 --> 01:55:56,889 really brought that out and that's the 2664 01:56:03,470 --> 01:55:59,159 great thing this is you know this is 2665 01:56:06,810 --> 01:56:03,480 supposedly a sci-fi show that goes out 2666 01:56:09,899 --> 01:56:06,820 before the watershed but there is a dark 2667 01:56:13,500 --> 01:56:09,909 side to this and Torchwood has explored 2668 01:56:16,620 --> 01:56:13,510 this but but Tony does do it too insofar 2669 01:56:19,109 --> 01:56:16,630 as they can before the watershed when 2670 01:56:23,069 --> 01:56:19,119 kids are watching but it's it's great 2671 01:56:26,030 --> 01:56:23,079 yeah okay so as Matt Smith a decent 2672 01:56:31,379 --> 01:56:26,040 successor to all those who came before 2673 01:56:34,319 --> 01:56:31,389 yes he is he had big big shoes to step 2674 01:56:36,330 --> 01:56:34,329 into but this guy I mean this is the 2675 01:56:37,740 --> 01:56:36,340 sign of greatness to follow 2676 01:56:41,310 --> 01:56:37,750 Christopher ankle 2677 01:56:44,910 --> 01:56:41,320 and david tennant as two brilliant 2678 01:56:46,730 --> 01:56:44,920 actors very well established well the 2679 01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:46,740 thing is just watching these people 2680 01:56:54,480 --> 01:56:51,610 utter these complicated speeches minute 2681 01:56:56,070 --> 01:56:54,490 after minute and do it so well you 2682 01:56:57,990 --> 01:56:56,080 realize you have to have a pretty good 2683 01:57:00,300 --> 01:56:58,000 actor and get away with that and sound 2684 01:57:03,660 --> 01:57:00,310 believable well looking where Matt Smith 2685 01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:03,670 has done brilliantly because he stepped 2686 01:57:10,260 --> 01:57:06,610 into very big shoes with those two 2687 01:57:13,700 --> 01:57:10,270 massive actors in in terms of their 2688 01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:13,710 reputation in the UK and and now beyond 2689 01:57:19,800 --> 01:57:16,930 Christie Eccleston and David Tennant 2690 01:57:21,780 --> 01:57:19,810 and Matt Smith has made this role his 2691 01:57:24,450 --> 01:57:21,790 own nobody thought he could do it he's 2692 01:57:26,850 --> 01:57:24,460 done it well boom him here's my dream 2693 01:57:29,130 --> 01:57:26,860 Doctor Who after he's done you and 2694 01:57:31,110 --> 01:57:29,140 McGregor takes over and you get to see 2695 01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:31,120 obi-wan Kenobi play Doctor Who and then 2696 01:57:35,160 --> 01:57:33,490 I my head might literally literally 2697 01:57:36,900 --> 01:57:35,170 explode if that ever happens that would 2698 01:57:39,210 --> 01:57:36,910 be my dream well after watching you and 2699 01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:39,220 McGregor play this crazy priest and 2700 01:57:44,340 --> 01:57:42,130 angels and demons the Tom Hanks vehicle 2701 01:57:46,590 --> 01:57:44,350 based on the Dan Brown books and then 2702 01:57:50,100 --> 01:57:46,600 watching him in the men who stare at 2703 01:57:52,050 --> 01:57:50,110 goats much more so then they'll be one 2704 01:57:53,820 --> 01:57:52,060 Kenobi I think the guys got the acting 2705 01:57:55,620 --> 01:57:53,830 chops to do just about anything 2706 01:57:58,110 --> 01:57:55,630 yeah well watched him in Moulin Rouge 2707 01:57:59,870 --> 01:57:58,120 and when he starts seeing silly love 2708 01:58:02,010 --> 01:57:59,880 songs by Paul McCartney that's when I 2709 01:58:03,450 --> 01:58:02,020 don't take this the wrong way pair cast 2710 01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:03,460 audience but that's when I fell in love 2711 01:58:08,220 --> 01:58:06,610 with you and McGregor so which is why I 2712 01:58:09,540 --> 01:58:08,230 have a restraining order out against me 2713 01:58:11,370 --> 01:58:09,550 by you in the Gregory 2714 01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:11,380 I kind of like the performances from 2715 01:58:15,750 --> 01:58:13,930 Hugh Laurie is dr. Gregory House on 2716 01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:15,760 American television there's something 2717 01:58:20,970 --> 01:58:18,370 about these British character actors who 2718 01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:20,980 do American accent so flawlessly you can 2719 01:58:26,190 --> 01:58:24,490 always you know sorry Nick go ahead no 2720 01:58:29,190 --> 01:58:26,200 no I was gonna say it this way you look 2721 01:58:32,990 --> 01:58:29,200 agreed to do a little ride 2722 01:58:35,340 --> 01:58:33,000 that's why British accent thing here 2723 01:58:38,070 --> 01:58:35,350 Nick pub where can we find more of the 2724 01:58:40,710 --> 01:58:38,080 things that you write about Nick poke go 2725 01:58:42,930 --> 01:58:40,720 ahead that was fast and breezy 2726 01:58:44,970 --> 01:58:42,940 Paul Kimball where can we find your 2727 01:58:46,380 --> 01:58:44,980 stuff you know why I'm all over the 2728 01:58:49,860 --> 01:58:46,390 place but the place to come look for me 2729 01:58:51,570 --> 01:58:49,870 folks is on the para cast forums because 2730 01:58:53,400 --> 01:58:51,580 hey don't just talk on the radio I 2731 01:58:54,750 --> 01:58:53,410 actually show up in the forums and give 2732 01:58:56,910 --> 01:58:54,760 you folks a chance to beat me over the 2733 01:58:58,320 --> 01:58:56,920 head with a shovel so bring it on and by 2734 01:58:59,820 --> 01:58:58,330 the way Nick if you want to be beaten 2735 01:59:02,610 --> 01:58:59,830 over the head with a shovel you're 2736 01:59:06,480 --> 01:59:02,620 welcome to join too I'll look into that 2737 01:59:09,090 --> 01:59:06,490 so I guess the head with shovels and 2738 01:59:11,070 --> 01:59:09,100 other blunt Eames implements all the 2739 01:59:13,440 --> 01:59:11,080 time so I'm not sure about that 2740 01:59:15,330 --> 01:59:13,450 we do things like that to me for 105 2741 01:59:17,250 --> 01:59:15,340 years or something like that two things 2742 01:59:19,100 --> 01:59:17,260 I would say if you do that Nick it would 2743 01:59:21,360 --> 01:59:19,110 be interesting if true and it would be a 2744 01:59:25,380 --> 01:59:21,370 it would be a part of your journey 2745 01:59:28,770 --> 01:59:25,390 that's all I'm gonna say inside joke 2746 01:59:30,870 --> 01:59:28,780 between nicotine 5k very much day thanks 2747 01:59:33,240 --> 01:59:30,880 to my co-hosts Paul Campbell Nick Pope 2748 01:59:38,290 --> 01:59:33,250 thanks for joining us on the power cast